Low Ph Stalling Cycle?

[dudleyd]

This is my first go at posting so please be gentle with me.

I have an Interpet fixbox 64l tank and have been doing a fishless cycle for 23 days.

The problem i'm having is i'm not getting any ammonia drop at all so far. It is dosed up to 4ppm. Nitrite is 5.0 and nitrate is about 10. Temp is 28 degrees C. Added interpet filter start for the first week as instructed. Substrate and ornaments are all in, had murky water (in the tank) for about a week and has been crystal clear ever since. I'm using an API master test kit for testing. Water is treated with interpet tap safe to remove metals.

Having read some of the threads on this forum i think maybe my ph was a bit low at maybe just below 7. Went to lfs and got some API ph up.

So my questions are, what ph is optimal for the cycling process?

is anything else affecting the cycle?


Thanks in advance.

 

[Trollfest]

Hiya

Welcome to the forum! I'm no expert myself but I think generally the advise on pH is leave alone as it can do more harm than good trying to adjust it. Have you got any mature media from another tank? If you got some and popped it in your filter you should start getting results. There's a page in the beginners section with members who are all willing to donate media for cycling new tanks.

 

[OldMan47]

Welcome to the forum DudleyD.
We would have expected to see some movement by now on your ammonia. A pH of 7.0 is not a problem for the bacteria colony to grow in. A pH of about 8 is closer to ideal but as long as it is above 7.0 you are fine. If you really wanted to bring up the pH with a low impact product, common baking soda, sodium bicarbonate, works fine and can't drive the pH much above about 8 on its own. The filter start products have almost universally been shown to be a total waste of money so probably no harm done there but no benefit either. A nitrite reading of 5 on that kit should really be regarded as at least 5 ppm. What is the nitrite from your tap water? If it is also near 5.0 ppm then it doesn't indicate much. If nitrite from the tap is near zero, as it usually is, then maybe you are starting to see the beginning of ammonia processing with a build in nitrites. It would not take much ammonia being processed to produce 5 ppm of nitrites but it would indicate the start of the A-bac growth. I have no idea what the "tap safe" contains but the thing you want for new water is a dechlorinator to remove chlorine and chloramine. Metals are seldom a thing that impacts the cycling of an aquarium, although most dechlorinators also contain something to remove heavy metals for the fish's health.

 

[Trollfest]

Tapsafe is a dechlorinator and heavy metal chelator

 

[OldMan47]

OK, that is exactly what you want then. Its just a brand I haven't run across in the US.

 

[dudleyd]

Thankyou very much so far. I meant to write that tapsafe is a dechlorinator, sometimes i forget that not everywhere has the same products.

I don't really find it very easy to match the colours in the test tubes with the ones on the cards when i'm doing my tests.

The nitrite in my tap water is 0ppm and the nitrate is also 0ppm so something has definately happened at some point, just that things seem to have been stationary. I have raised the ph to 8.0 using ph up but will have to get some shells or something to keep it up when the fish are in (after the cycle has completed).

Can't get any mature media off anyone i'm afraid.

So i guess it's just a waiting game now and see if stuff starts to happen with the new ph level.

I have been logging my progress and will post it all when cycle is finished.

 

[nmonks]

So my questions are, what ph is optimal for the cycling process?

Yes. Filter bacteria (there are at least two main types) are happiest at between pH 7.5 and pH 8.0. As pH drops below 7.5, their growth and activity rates decline, and below pH 6.0, they all but stop working altogether. For all practical purposes, the best pH for a community aquarium is around 7.5, even if you're keeping soft water fish (with a few exceptions, notably livebearers and things like Ram Cichlids, pH isn't a major issue for community species).

is anything else affecting the cycle?

Interpet Filter Start is largely useless. The single best way to cycle a new aquarium is to use fish food. Simply setting the tank up, and then every 2-3 days, add a small pinch of flake. The flake will rot, and as it does so, creates the ammonia required for filter bacteria. Do a water change of 25-50% every weekend. Within about 3-4 weeks the tank will be almost completely cycled, and you can add your first hardy fish. Corydoras paleatus or zebra danios are ideal.

The rate at which filter bacteria get established depend on multiple factors. In general, these things help: Firstly, a basic pH, as we've already mentioned. Secondly, moderate to high levels of hardness (10+ degrees dH is ideal). Thirdly, lots of oxygen. Fourthly, lots of water movement. Finally, moderate temperature; not too hot oxygen concentration drops, but not so cold the bacteria are working slowly (25 degrees C is ideal, but a degree or two above or below is fine, depending on the fish species you want to keep).

Cheers, Neale

 

[drobbyb]

I'd have to disagree with cycling with fish food. Since organics decay differently depending on many different variables, there is no control as to what level of ammonia that is being produced. I would only use fish food as a last resort if I couldn't find bottled pure ammonia.

 

[nmonks]

I'd have to disagree with cycling with fish food. Since organics decay differently depending on many different variables, there is no control as to what level of ammonia that is being produced. I would only use fish food as a last resort if I couldn't find bottled pure ammonia.

OK, here's why fish food is better: Firstly, if you add a pinch of flake similar to how much you'd add if there were fish in the system, as the flake decays (which it does quickly) you get a reasonably similar amount of ammonia to what you'd have if there were fish in the aquarium. So it's easy to scale this system up for oscars or down for neon tetras, depending on how much flake you add.

Secondly, people who concentrate on ammonia forget about how biological decay works. The bacteria that break down ammonia are only PART of the system in your aquarium. They're called denitrifying bacteria. But there's a whole other important bunch of bacteria called saprotrophic bacteria that break down complex organic molecules: starch, proteins, etc. These bacteria won't be stimulated to grow if all you do is add ammonia. By adding flake food instead, you're providing organic molecules that these saprotrophic bacteria can use.

Thirdly, the ammonia method of cycling is fiddly and doesn't always work. I have no idea why it doesn't always work, but then again, nor does anyone else. But spend any time on this forum or anywhere else and you'll hear about people adding ammonia week after week after week and still not getting the zero ammonia and nitrite levels they're after. Perhaps the problem is how they calculate the amount of ammonia needed? I don't know. But it's a heck of a lot easier to tell people to add a pinch of flake food every other day for three weeks than to have them measuring out specific concentrations of ammonia!

The flake food approach is very reliable, easy to explain, and doesn't require any dangerous chemicals or complicated maths.

Cheers, Neale

 

[drobbyb]

Sorry to the OP for hijacking this thread.

I'm trying to understand this. The logic is sound, but this begs the question of why isn't everybody doing this and why do some people have perfect results with the standard ammonia fishless cycle? How heavily can you stock the tank after cycling with fish food? 10% full load? 50%?

 

[OldMan47]

If you use fish food and see the results that Neale is talking about, you can stock about as many fish as you have been feeding with that flake. If you are feeding enough flake to the tank for 4 fish, figure you have enough bacteria for 4 fish.

 

[drobbyb]

Ok that makes sense.

 

[nmonks]

why isn't everybody doing this and why do some people have perfect results with the standard ammonia fishless cycle?

The "just add flake" approach has been around for ages, and before people added ammonia, was the standard fishless method for maturing aquaria. The ammonia method is popular now perhaps more because it's fashionable than anything else. It's mentioned a lot in magazines, for example. It may also be faster, when it works, because you're adding ammonia directly to the system rather than waiting for flake to decay. But the extra day or two saved doesn't seem like a big deal to me given cycling takes a few weeks.

The ammonia approach can work well, no question. Perhaps it works fine the majority of the time. But there are certainly occasions when it doesn't work. I have no idea why this is the case. It may well be because the cycling wasn't done properly, but there may be other factors involved as well.

How heavily can you stock the tank after cycling with fish food? 10% full load? 50%?

As OldMan47 said above, and as I thought I explained earlier on, you adjust the amount of flake to however many fish you're planning to keep. In practice, I tend to use a small amount, cycle the tank until ammonia is zero and nitrite nearly zero (so, 3-4 weeks), and then add a few hardy fish species like danios, hardy livebearers or Corydoras. I then slowly build up the stocking. Even when you cycle an aquarium, there are a few subsequent weeks where ammonia and nitrite levels can rise above zero, so building up the stocking levels carefully gives you some leeway to make sure everything is working properly.

Cheers, Neale

 

[dudleyd]

So should i just be sitting and waiting for ammonia levels to drop? I've tested again today and the ammonia test is the exact same colour as the one yesterday. Nitrite is off the scale i think.

Any help much appreciated, i'm starting to think i've done something wrong.

DD

 

[nmonks]

So should i just be sitting and waiting for ammonia levels to drop?

Sure.

I've tested again today and the ammonia test is the exact same colour as the one yesterday. Nitrite is off the scale i think.

If there's a non-zero level of nitrite, and your tap water contains no nitrite, then at least some denitrification is going on. This is good. But there's no point adding more ammonia if the is more than, say, 0.5 mg/l in the water. You don't need much to "feed" the bacteria. So by all means sit back, wait for the ammonia to drop, and don't add anything until its below 0.5 mg/l.

Any help much appreciated, i'm starting to think i've done something wrong.

As I've mentioned, I suspect this isn't a rare experience at all. So don't worry. The ammonia fishless cycle isn't as foolproof as it is often stated to be. Quite the reverse in fact.

Cheers, Neale