Look at this crappy set up petsmart is selling

[John_Nicholson]

Having decent replacement water for water changes is a given in my mind. if you do not have that you need a hobby other then fish. I am pretty sure my water quality is pretty good or I would not be able to do this....

-john

 

[WILDER]

That's a cute pic.

 

[SRC]

What I think John is trying to say is....a 1-2 gallon tank is a pretty comfy spot for a betta, I do not think he is meaning to keep them in anything less then 1 gallon (ie in regards to the comments about 1/2 gallon tanks). They do not "need" a 10 gallon tank for each one of them. We as humans decide that because we "thinkk" that's what they need..then that's what they actually need. We as humans commonly and frequently allow our emotions to rule alot of the decisions we make regarding our fish/pets...instead of logic and fact.

I personally don't think 1 betta needs a 10 gallon tank to him or herself. And I don't think anyone else logically thinks that either..now they may think that from an emotional standpoint that they do. Because the human mentality of thinking is "bigger has to be better", right? But that isn't always true in all aspects of life. (kinda like people who over feed their pets and make them fat. They think they are happy because they are fat and full...when in fact they are actually harming them by allowing them to over feed. That is human emotion over reacting regarding pet care working at it's finest.)

I have seen more then a couple people on this forum alone (not counting others I am and have been a member of) post about problems they've had with their betta from keeping a single one in a 10 gallon alone. They tend to stress out and many blow their tails from the extra effort to swim about and patrol it.

So it would be my opinion that anything from 1-5 gallons is suitable for a single betta. You might say the fishes comfort and well being should be first at hand..but you also have to take the owner into consideration as well too though. We keep animals that should not be kept in tanks (regardless of the size you choose to keep the betta in) so in retrospect we as owners have to have them in a size that can be adequately controlled and afforded.

 

[Durbkat]

Very well said, very well.

 

[splashluff]

I totally agree with SRC

Feeshey, you obviously care a lot about your Bettas and want to give them to largest and most lavish homes possible. However, for some Bettas, that ISNT always what's best. I put Maui in a 5g with a heater and plenty of WC's, and he would not stop chewing his tail (I think from the stress of having to "patrol"). He's now in a 1gal with 2 Java Ferns which give him plenty of cover, and he's VERY happy. He gets WC's every 2 days and his tail is growing back rapidly. I just make sure the room temp is constantly at 75* and I check his tank thermometer often.

Aanyway... there IS a boundary that shouldn't be crossed in regard to tinsey tanks. Anything under 1/2 gallon to me is inhumane. And, I believe that 1/2 gallons should only house juvies or temporarily house adults. If the Betta has no room to swim, flare, hide, and be happy in their tank than why would that make their owner happy?

also, your Dobie is adorrrrrable SRC! Red Dobes are the cutest.

 

[Ethos]

A little of topic, but I concure, that is a very cool picture.

For me, It just seems a little bit of a waste of space to have a betta in a 10G.
Even my 5G seems alittle too much, although, I had my betta "officer" in a 5G for awhile, and he was much more active than he is now, in his 1.5G

 

[SRC]

also, your Dobie is adorrrrrable SRC! Red Dobes are the cutest.

*teehee* Smiley, and I, says thank you...I think she's adorable myself lol..but ya know..I'm a tad bias when it comes to her . I dunno if you've seen the pics of her in the Household Pet section..if not..there are some cutie pie ones of her in a thread of mine .

************
Ethos..I think it all really depends on each individual fish. They are no different from any other creature. We all have our own personal preferences..you know.

 

[OohFeeshy]

I'm currently planning to upgrade all/most of mine to 5g (not too sure on size yet, I'm guesstimating 5g) rubbermaid style containers. Why? All the space of a nice big tank, maybe not as seethrough but a lot cheaper and stackable, so I can get plenty and the only worry is the weight The smallest 'tank' I'm currently using is a beanie box for the tidgy female, she's only about 2cm at the moment Once I've got a couple of tupperware she'll be upgraded to either a 1.5g or a 3g though, and that should be the weekend or so.

 

[The ultimate_fish MaC dAddY]

Have you seen those boots with the fish in the heel? Now those are bad.

http/static.zoovy.com/img/caboots/W150-H...platfishblk.jpg

Ok set emotion aside and give we one reason they are better in the bigger tank.

-john

More room to swim, therefore more exercise, stronger, happier (ie. actually swim around instead of laying aroung, floating around etc.), better scope for decorations (more planting, caves, etc.), better water quality overall (more stable), easier to heat.... Amongst other things. For juvies (ie, 3 months, from a breeder), a larger tank is far better as they are more active and inquisitive.

So should I clear out one of my 120 gallon discus growout tanks for a single male betta? So far you have offered no proof. Just your feelings. Also a large tank does not always mean better water quality. If we change 100% of the water daily in a 1/2 gallon or smaller container and you change your 1 gallon tank once a week our fish will have much better water quality then yours. The lack of activity that you mentioned point more to bad water then anything else.

-john

Oh man the boot is awful, there needs to be a law against that!

John, don't be a smart ellic, we don't mean clear out a 120 gallon fo one betta, just give them like 2-5 gallon per betta. And yes I had a betta in a tiny tank like that before, and he didn't do nothing, but now that I've ginen them a better tank, they swim around and are happy as a fat kid in a cake factory.

 

[wuvmybetta]

In closing- I agree totally with Jennie here. Very well said, as always.

I'd also like to point out the huge difference between breeding and owning bettas. When you breed, you know how often you do your water changes and what size container you can get away with and for how long. I put mine into 32 ounce jars for the first couple/few months before they move up to half gallons By the time they're outgrowing them I hope they're off to show/auction or adopted, the oldest move up to gallons or 2.5's,it's a cycle. But- as a pet betta owner- I would never consider 32 ounces acceptable for a fish's permanent home. It's comparing apples to oranges here.

On that note- this thread really is against the betta forum rules of "no bashing stores". OohFeeshy said it best when she said it's not exactly PetSmart who is to blame. So...

 

[RandomWiktor]

Very nicely said, Wuv and SRC. John, I know that you have kept bettas a certain way for a long time, and it has worked, but I think that writing off the advantages of a reasonably large tank as being strictly emotion-based is a little rude; there were some definate valid points about temp stability, behavioral enrichment, etc. Yes, it is a personal choice, but BOTH housing options have thier benefits. Obviously, no one is suggesting you keep a highly territorial fish in a MASSIVE tank, but most people would probably not consider 10 gallons too outrageous for a fish that is a good 3 inches long.

I don't really think that keeping bettas in larger tanks is a strictly emotional choice. I think that it is generally accepted that the bare minimum is just that; the absolute lowest level of care for health and survival - as in not the ideal, but the acceptable. You can keep a dog completely outdoors on a tether with fresh water and food, bring it to the vet for appointments when it is sick, and keep it on dewormers. It will live a good long time. But, seeing as dogs are pack animals who need attention and interaction, I think most people would say that the dog has only been given the minimum it needs to survive. Obviously, bettas can survive in much less water than other fish. But it doesn't necesarily mean that they are stimulated, well-exersized, or in ideal conditions. Now, none of us can go out and buy a rice field, patch of flooded grassland, or wetland for our fish to live in. However, I think we can safely assume that for at least a decent portion of the year (from what pics I've seen, anyways), the fish are in water that is at least ankle deep, but certainly containing a greater volume of water due to the length and width of the area than your average bowl or small tank. So, I would say that "ideal" would not be so much a particular aquarium, since most are a bit deep for a betta's tastes, but a fair-sized tank filled to maybe 5-10 inches deep with a good long length and width. I plan on keeping my next betta in a 10 gallon tupperware, since it is very long and wide, but pretty shallow as well, for example. Add to that live plants, blackwater extract, etc. and I think I'll finally be getting at least closer to what the species needs for survival, as well as its less essential but still important requirements.

However, I do agree that each betta is different. Some are very territorial and insecure, and need confined spaces to feel comfortable. Others hate being in small containers (take my betta Matamoras for example; if you put him in a cup or smaller tank, he freaks out, slamming against the walls and trying to jump out) and need plenty of space. I think that in addition to personal preference, finnage, age, health, etc. should all be considered; obviously, you do not want to move an old, super huge finned betta who just got over a nasty infection into a 10 gallon tank, as he will surely suffer from the sudden stress of his surroundings.

That said, I have NO issue with breeders keeping thier bettas in small enclosures. Frankly, it would not be financially feasable for them to be kept in anything larger, as others have pointed out, because of the massive size of spawns and the huge volume of fish kept. That, and if you are a good breeder with desireable stock, they shouldn't be around for long, and will hopefully be off to homes that will keep them in at least a gallon of water. ((I've found one gallons too difficult to keep at a stable temp, as well as just to cramped looking, but I think 2.5's work nicely for isecure bettas, and 5-10 gallons work well for strong, bold fish. But, apparently they do work for some people)) So, I doubt anyone here is casting stones at the breeding community.

 

[wuvmybetta]

That said, I have NO issue with breeders keeping thier bettas in small enclosures. Frankly, it would not be financially feasable for them to be kept in anything larger, as others have pointed out, because of the massive size of spawns and the huge volume of fish kept. That, and if you are a good breeder with desireable stock, they shouldn't be around for long, and will hopefully be off to homes that will keep them in at least a gallon of water. ((I've found one gallons too difficult to keep at a stable temp, as well as just to cramped looking, but I think 2.5's work nicely for isecure bettas, and 5-10 gallons work well for strong, bold fish. But, apparently they do work for some people)) So, I doubt anyone here is casting stones at the breeding community.

Indeed, and I want you to know that I didn't take any offense because as I said, apples to oranges.

To clarify my point to some people (who have been breeding for years and years ) as breeders you must remember that there are people who keep bettas as pets, and a pet has no business living in a closet.

When I moved some of my guys, who had gone from 32 ounces to gallons to 2.5's...oh man, they love the 2.5's! It made me wish I could get one for everybody but, it's not reasonable so...you have to work for a 2.5 around here

 

[John_Nicholson]

"I think that it is generally accepted that the bare minimum is just that; the absolute lowest level of care for health and survival - as in not the ideal, but the acceptable"

Generally accepted by whom? Hobbiest? Breeders? Scientist? PETA? Everyone has opinions and that is great. Once the basic needs are met everything else that happens to these fish are our personal beliefs. These are not based on study or research. The best thing for the fish would have been to leave it alone in the wild where it had a chance to reproduce and lead a normal life. Once we decided to pull the bettas from the wild and manipulate the species into things that we liked better then the notion of what is best for the animal is out the window. The bettas sole purpose from that point on is to bring pleasure to its owners...... If it makes you happy keeping it in a 10 gallon tank fine. If you are happy with it in a smaller tank then fine. As long as the bettas bacis needs are covered and its owner is enjoying keeping the fish then it has done its job.

By the way none of this hacks me off. I enjoy a good debate. I enjoy playing devils advocate at times. The thing that irritates me are uneducated sheep (and no this is not directed at anyone in this thread). Someone gets on line and ask a question. Someone answers the question and from that point on that OPINION somehow becomes fact. This sheep mentality is why people use to think the world was flat even when you could see that the moon was round. I have no problem with people having opinions but please push the envelope a little. Form those beliefs on something more then casual observation. In the long run everyone will benefit from that.

-john

P.S. Since the bettas are really my daughters thing I have no pics of them so here is another discus pic....Those are fry stuck to the side of the cone.

 

[Miss Dib Dabs]

Some might say that is a very cold outlook John.
I have two boys, both from places they were miserable and suffering. They both have 10 gallons each and are very happy. In fact ollie has been working on one of the biggest bubblenests I've ever seen him do this last 24 hours. A little under a quarter of the tank!! He's gotten fitter and healthier being in the tank and looks stunning. He does use the whole tank as his home. I had toyed with the idea of other fish with him and he has lived with my harlequins b4 but he's perfectly happy as he is and since I can give him that for himself then so be it. Same for Houdini. He was a mess when we got him. He's had his tank to himself for 4 months now since he came home and he's flourished. His finnage and tail have grown beyond all expectations, he's matured into a feisty red betta that'd not hesitate to do what we all know male bettas are good at.
Yes, They could have smaller accomodation. Yes I could cram in more with dividers.....but why? To me it isn't about my enjoyment in watching these beautiful creatures, but giving them the best I can since they have been taken from the natural enviroment and shoved into such a life. Not as if can put them back without probably killing them in the process and risking contamination into their natural enviroment.
I have 7 girls who live in a community with other fish in a 30g. They are very happy, interacting, playing. Yes, they do play. They do have personalities. Just because breeders etc do put their fish in tiny spaces and they still breed and seem well etc doesn't mean they are as happy as they could be. I have no doubt most of us could be made to appear fantastic and healthy and yet be living in a small cell for most of our lives.
So what that they're not human. No one claims to treat them as such. To do so would be daft. Can't treat an animal as a human anymore then you can treat a cat, dog, horse or rat alike! They have different needs.
Either way, ppl will continue to do what they do, no matter what other opinions they have thrown their way. Doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it.
Hugs,
P.

 

[John_Nicholson]

What is so cold about my outlook? I stated that once the basic needs of the fish are met then they are there for out pleasure. That is waht you have done. You have met their basic needs and then put them in a situation that brings you pleasure. Now we may have different opinions as to where the basic needs end but neither of us have provided any proof one way or the other.

I do disagree with the word play. You are observing instinct behaviors that are being intrpreted as play.

-john