Lighting Request

[Scar_UK]

Hello every one,
I’m a new member to your forums, and I consider myself fortunate to have discovered this site and I’m hoping that you may be able to advise me.
I have a Juwel Trigon 190 tropical fish tank, it’s one of those corner jobs and suites my small lounge just right, … well over time it’s due for a complete overhaul, I have a co2 system installed and have suffered recently from a blanket weed invasion hence the overhaul.
My query and I seek your help here, the lighting has always seemed a bit lacking and store assistants try to talk me into buying what is their feeling’s of what I need, to grow good plants.
The height from top of water to the substrate surface is 18”/46cm and volume is given as 190 litres approx 41 uk gallons.
Dimension of tank is 98.5 x 70 x 60 cm.
I would be grateful for your advice on what is considered the best lighting tubes for my tanks family of plants.

 

[SuperColey1]

What lighting do you currently have?

And what is your aim. Heavy planting, fast growing scaping, low maintenance, 'low light' plants etc.

For us to give you opinions on lighting we need to know exactly you want achieve. Whether it to be a planted tank that you can look at and keep going for a few years with minimal maintenance or if you are aiming to scape take photos reach a conclusion and then rescape every few months.

AC

 

[Scar_UK]

What lighting do you currently have?

And what is your aim. Heavy planting, fast growing scaping, low maintenance, 'low light' plants etc.

For us to give you opinions on lighting we need to know exactly you want achieve. Whether it to be a planted tank that you can look at and keep going for a few years with minimal maintenance or if you are aiming to scape take photos reach a conclusion and then rescape every few months.

AC

Hello AC
Thanks for the quick reply,

Present lighting consists of two 24”/61cm, tubes
1. Glo - Aqua – Glo T8
2. Glo - Power Glo
Both tubes 20w
With regards to the weed setup I will be aiming for a low maintenance, but I would like it to be fairly densely planted, fish to be angels with a java planting on slate in for ground.
Once set up I would ultimately like it to stay relatively untouched for as long as possible, apart from the obvious maintenance.
Kind regards
Stuart

 

[SuperColey1]

You will be OK with the lights you have. At the most for a low light, low maintenance setup you may want to add one more tube if it will fit in. 1WPG T8 is fine for a low light setup.

I would guess the ballast in the canopy is a 2 x 18W ballast though so even though you've put some 20W tubes in they will be running at 18W each.

Even still it should be enough light.

When you say it a bit lacking do you mean visually to your eye when you look at the tank or that it isn't performing plant growth wise.

What CO2 system do you have installed?

AC

 

[Scar_UK]

What lighting do you currently have?

And what is your aim. Heavy planting, fast growing scaping, low maintenance, 'low light' plants etc.

For us to give you opinions on lighting we need to know exactly you want achieve. Whether it to be a planted tank that you can look at and keep going for a few years with minimal maintenance or if you are aiming to scape take photos reach a conclusion and then rescape every few months.

AC

Hello AC
Thanks for the quick reply,

Present lighting consists of two 24”/61cm, tubes
1. Glo - Aqua – Glo T8
2. Glo - Power Glo
Both tubes 20w
With regards to the weed setup I will be aiming for a low maintenance, but I would like it to be fairly densely planted, fish to be angels with a java planting on slate in for ground.
Once set up I would ultimately like it to stay relatively untouched for as long as possible, apart from the obvious maintenance.
Kind regards
Stuart

 

[Scar_UK]

What lighting do you currently have?

And what is your aim. Heavy planting, fast growing scaping, low maintenance, 'low light' plants etc.

For us to give you opinions on lighting we need to know exactly you want achieve. Whether it to be a planted tank that you can look at and keep going for a few years with minimal maintenance or if you are aiming to scape take photos reach a conclusion and then rescape every few months.

AC

With regard to my comment ‘a bit lacking’ …. plant growth appeared to be slow and the problem may well lie elsewhere it’s one of those area’s that I feel I now need to address and I suspected that it may have been a lack of lighting, if as you suggest this is ok, then it’s in another area.
The Co2 system is a ‘Dupla Co2 with Reactor 400 with a diffusion capacity of up to 400 litres with 10 degrees dKH.
Inside the rector it has a diffusion space = 6 steps and 20 levels of cascade.
I also intend on my new set up to install Tetra Plant Complete Substrate to a depth of approx 2cm’s before installing the gravel to an approx depth of 3cm’s hopefully to aid plant root growth.
Hope this makes sense to you AC.
Stuart

 

[SuperColey1]

I think the light 'should' be OK but you may want a little more so a cheap upgrade would be to add another 18W tube and get one of those cheap 15/20W Arcadia starters to run it.

This would give you a little more light. You are wanting a low maintenance setup and with low maintenance that will mean slow growth. Fast growth means higher light, intensive pruning and lots of work keeping all the parameters and nutrients up.

The TetraComplete would be a good addition but make sure the cap layer (whichever gravel/sand you choose) is small grain <3mm. Another option to the Tetra Complete would be Tropica which for your footprint would cost about £20 for a 5lb bag and then this would go under the 'capping' layer just as Tetra would.

That CO2 kit looks OK to me.

Are you dosing any ferts? and what filtration / powerheads / circulation aids are you using?

What does this 'blanket weed' look like. Can you identify it from the following site, You may want to read through several of the other pages on the site too as the following link is virtually a one stop shop for basic knowledge:

http/www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm

AC

 

[Scar_UK]

Thanks for the info regarding the lights; it is an option I will now keep in mind if plant growth is too slow.

My existing gravel is If I remember, an iron clay gravel highly recommended at time of purchase about 3 years ago and is to a depth of 8cms which I intend to thoroughly clean and re-use, it is approx the dimensions’ you recommend. I know it’s deep but originally it was landscaped to slope downwards to the front and has over time levelled out.

The ‘Tropica’ on internet researching looks like a fine addition and is on my wish list for next visit to my local supplier in the New Year.

The powerhead which is to be replaced will be the original ‘Jewel 600’, I did consider (wrongly) that I would increase the filtering and purchase a ‘Jewel 1000’ but on the jewel web site they advise against this, as it would damage the plants (to strong) and would apparently drive off co2 at the surface, also the biological process and effect of the filtering system would be impaired, the actual filtering is by the jewel process of interchangeable filter pads i.e. carbon, course and fine sponges, followed up by a nitrate removal sponge that after a passage of weeks develops a culture of bacteria, which helps to reduce nitrate levels in the set up, the whole thing is of course topped up with a layer of white filter wool (changed weekly).

The weed invasion as far as I’m able to see (thanks for the link) appears to be ‘Rhizoclonium’ and may well have been a result of my lack of regular maintenance at the time, however that is now to be rectified with a complete overhaul as I mentioned earlier.

With regard to ‘ferts’ I have only used the normal shop plant feed on a bi-weekly basis I would appreciate any advice that you might be able to give on this subject that would help to improve the well being of my intended new plants.

Thanks AC for your time and patience it is greatly appreciated.
Stuart

 

[SuperColey1]

I think Juwel need to learn about planted tanks and also to learn some basic facts. lol This is maybe one of the many reasons most Juwel owners in the planted section rip the internal out and then use external filtration instead. lol (as well as removing the black box from the tank)

I assume 190 means 190ltrs? I have 4 x the flow in my 125Ltr as you have in your 190!!! (1700lph) However I only use 700lph filter and a Koralia circulation pump (1500lph) Juwel are saying to you that 3.15x lph is fine and any more will break the plants whereas I am saying that 17x lph doesn't break plants. some people are currently using as much as 30x their tank volume as flow. This is with fish too!!!

In planted tanks we suggest using at least 10x the tank volume for lph. This doesn't have to be just the filter but if you can get a filter for 1900lph and then remove the black box then you have no equipment in the tank, just and in and out pipe. As you are you can do a similar thing to me and add a Koralia to boost circulation.

Co2 isn't driven off by the lph circulation wise. It is only driven off if the surface is turbulent. A larger lph within the tank will move the CO2 around the tank and help diffusion by keeping it in the water longer. This is easy to see. If you get a diffuser and put it in a tank with no filter the bubbles go straight up to the surface. If you then add a filter the bubbles are pushed around the tank and therefore remain in the water longer aiding diffusion. Ideally if you can get the bubbles to diffuse and then go sideways then moving round the tank this extra time in contact with the water means more CO2 gas diffuses. This is the basic principle of ladder diffusers in that the 'ladder' stops the bubble going straight to the surface, instead having to run along the bottom of each step and the bubble get visually smaller as it moves along. Simple to see yet one of Europe's major brands seems to have told you the opposite!!!

You don't want Carbon pads in there as this will adsorb nutrient. You definately don't want nitrate removers in there because plants need lots of nitrate.

I would either consider going the whole Tropica route, substrate under your iron clay plus Tropica Plant Nutrition+ (the plus is very important) plant food liquid or if you are wanting to save some money then have a look on the link I gave before about dosing regimes where you buy the powders, mix your own. These work out much much cheaper and you get enough powders to last years!!!

I think you have to get more circulation into your tank wether it be from a sole filter or by adding a Koralia in there as this helps push the CO2 and nutrients around the tank.

If I similie (a la Simon Cowell) Juwels theory it would be like cooking food for 200 people (nutrient and CO2), then chucking half away (carbon and nitrate pads) and then feeding everything that was left to the closest tables ignoring the rest (not enough circulation to distribute the CO2 and nutrient)

Its similar to a buffet. The ones near can reach the nutrient/CO2 whereas the rest have to get up and walk to the table!! We know plants can't walk so we use the circulation as waiter service.

Have a look at AquaEssentials.co.uk for the Tropica substrate and plant food and even to look into dry powders which you mix into solutions.

AC

 

[Scar_UK]

I think Juwel need to learn about planted tanks and also to learn some basic facts. lol This is maybe one of the many reasons most Juwel owners in the planted section rip the internal out and then use external filtration instead. lol (as well as removing the black box from the tank)

I assume 190 means 190ltrs? I have nearly 3 x the flow in my 125Ltr as you have in your 190!!! (1700lph) However I only use 700lph filter and a Koralia circulation pump (1500lph) Juwel are saying to you that 3.15x lph is fine and any more will break the plants whereas I am saying that 17x lph doesn't break plants. some people are currently using as much as 30x their tank volume as flow. This is with fish too!!!

In planted tanks we suggest using at least 10x the tank volume for lph. This doesn't have to be just the filter but if you can get a filter for 1900lph and then remove the black box then you have no equipment in the tank, just and in and out pipe. As you are you can do a similar thing to me and add a Koralia to boost circulation.

Co2 isn't driven off by the lph circulation wise. It is only driven off if the surface is turbulent. A larger lph within the tank will move the CO2 around the tank and help diffusion by keeping it in the water longer. This is easy to see. If you get a diffuser and put it in a tank with no filter the bubbles go straight up to the surface. If you then add a filter the bubbles are pushed around the tank and therefore remain in the water longer aiding diffusion. Ideally if you can get the bubbles to diffuse and then go sideways then moving round the tank this extra time in contact with the water means more CO2 gas diffuses. This is the basic principle of ladder diffusers in that the 'ladder' stops the bubble going straight to the surface, instead having to run along the bottom of each step and the bubble get visually smaller as it moves along. Simple to see yet one of Europe's major brands seems to have told you the opposite!!!

You don't want Carbon pads in there as this will adsorb nutrient. You definately don't want nitrate removers in there because plants need lots of nitrate.

I would either consider going the whole Tropica route, substrate under your iron clay plus Tropica Plant Nutrition+ (the plus is very important) plant food liquid or if you are wanting to save some money then have a look on the link I gave before about dosing regimes where you buy the powders, mix your own. These work out much much cheaper and you get enough powders to last years!!!

I think you have to get more circulation into your tank wether it be from a sole filter or by adding a Koralia in there as this helps push the CO2 and nutrients around the tank.

If I similie (a la Simon Cowell) Juwels theory it would be like cooking food for 200 people (nutrient and CO2), then chucking half away (carbon and nitrate pads) and then feeding everything that was left to the closest tables ignoring the rest (not enough circulation to distribute the CO2 and nutrient)

Its similar to a buffet. The ones near can reach the nutrient/CO2 whereas the rest have to get up and walk to the table!! We know plants can't walk so we use the circulation as waiter service.

Have a look at AquaEssentials.co.uk for the Tropica substrate and plant food and even to look into dry powders which you mix into solutions.

AC

Wow, what a response, and so much information, but just what I had hoped for, .. it will take me a little while to digest what you recommend and try to reconsider changing a lot of my ways, I still have an Eheim 2213 outside filter in my store would this suffice?
I take on board all your comments and will purchase a Koralia to boost circulation as you suggest as it makes a lot of sense.

Thanks again AC

 

[SuperColey1]

Personally I would use the 2213 alongside the internal and add a Koralia1 (600lph+440lph+1500lph = 2540lph) thats only just over 10 x your volume.

That 2213 alone would be OK for a 40ltr Nano. the way we look at planted filtration these days.

For me personally although money may be a factor for both you and I would be that I would get annoyed by having to pay for a pump to make things work and look better whilst having also to add some in pipes and still having the black box in the back.

Its a choice but money is also a consideration here:

1 large filter that does 2000lph or so means less in the tank but large cost. maybe £150-£200
Making do with the Eheim, black box and then buying a Koralia1 costs £25 delivered (Living Seas)

Both ways will do the job.

If cost is an issue I would definately suggest looking at making your own ferts from dry powders. They may look expensive when you add up all you would need but you have to weight up the consideration that on your tank I would be dosing approx 4ml TPN+ daily which would mean a bottle lasts 125 days. That means 3 bottles needed a year and more if you need to increase dosing whereas the ferts would cost about 2 bottles in price yet last you for a 2-3 years.

AC

 

[Scar_UK]

Personally I would use the 2213 alongside the internal and add a Koralia1 (600lph+440lph+1500lph = 2540lph) thats only just over 10 x your volume.

That 2213 alone would be OK for a 40ltr Nano. the way we look at planted filtration these days.

For me personally although money may be a factor for both you and I would be that I would get annoyed by having to pay for a pump to make things work and look better whilst having also to add some in pipes and still having the black box in the back.

Its a choice but money is also a consideration here:

1 large filter that does 2000lph or so means less in the tank but large cost. maybe £150-£200
Making do with the Eheim, black box and then buying a Koralia1 costs £25 delivered (Living Seas)

Both ways will do the job.

If cost is an issue I would definately suggest looking at making your own ferts from dry powders.

They may look expensive when you add up all you would need but you have to weight up the consideration that on your tank I would be dosing approx 4ml TPN+ daily which would mean a bottle lasts 125 days. That means 3 bottles needed a year and more if you need to increase dosing whereas the ferts would cost about 2 bottles in price yet last you for a 2-3 years.

AC

Thanks AC
If a filter should arrive at my house replacing the black box in my Trigon and the Eheim outside filter, what would you suggest? 10 x 190 litres = 1900 so it would need to be a big one.
Koralia1 as you sugested has been ordered.
0ne question will the new filter be to strong and cause to much current within the tank, bearing in mind my angels will have to be swimming 24.7
Stuart

 

[SuperColey1]

I wouldn't think you'ld have problems with flow being too strong for your fish tank. I have a Koralia1 (1500lph) in my 125Ltr tank which is smaller than yours alongside an EX700 (700lph) filter.

That makes a total of 2200lph on a 125Ltr tank (17.6x per hour turnover)

However my fish are Corys, Otos and Rasboras + shrimp

The Koralias are becoming increasing popular (as well as the Tunze versions) becuase while they have huge flow rates the are not like traditional powerheads in their flow pattern. If I put a standard type 1500lph powerhead in my tank I would have water on the floor!!! Either by the opposite pane of glass departing or just by the waves. It would also rip most of my plants out. The Koralia/Tunze are designed for marine coral tanks and are awesome for the price. They deliver the flow in a much wider spread pattern so that although there is 1500lph coming out of mine the plants only move as much as when the 400lph powerhead was in there. As Paul Daniels used to say 'that's magic'.

Does the trick though. I have seen some people use the small Nano one a couple of inches above the substrate with no substrate disturbance which we know would not be the case with standard powerheads.

I would stick with your Juwel for now and then move onto another filter after a month or so. Let your mind be reassured that a circulation pump of nearly 3 x the power of your (if it was empty) filter is OK with your fish and then make the decision.

Seeing as you have already got the Koralia on order I see no point in jumping in straight away and getting a larger filter without knowing if it will be OK or not when you have the tools to test at hand.

Put the Koralia in alongside the Juwel filter and see how the Angels fare. If they are OK add your spare Eheim. If they are still OK then you can swap the Eheim and Juwel (combined 1040lph) for a filter around the 1200lph mark if you want to spend the money otherwise stick with the Eheim and Juwel.

People warble on about fish pinned to the glass etc but you should really take these stories with a pinch of salt. Yes it can happen but judging by the filter power some are using in their planted tanks with discus it shouldn't be a problem. The filter flow can be directed through a Jet pipe where it will blast out a single stream, or a lily pipe where it will spiral the water out or by a spray bar where it will spread the output etc, there are many options for different types of flow.

So in summary put the Koralia1 in alongside the Juwel internal. See how it goes. Keep the CO2 in the green on the DC with some surface turbulence but not much. Get on top of the dosing. If things are OK then add the Eheim you have. If all is still OK then make the decision whether to stick with what you have or get yourself a single filter. Personal choice really because if you already have the 3 working at a decent flow rate (1500+600+440 = 2540lph / 190 = 11.78x turnover) then getting a larger external filter to replace the 2 filters you would be using wouldn't be an upgrade performance wise, just aesthetically.

AC

AC

 

[Scar_UK]

Thanks again AC, sound advice as usual and I will do just that, one further thing I will ask of you for the moment relates to the ferts, I have been on that page and it tends to go over my head at the moment as I know nothing of this approach as this is something very new, but looks very much like the way ahead.
Would you kindly if possible list for me what proportion of, and what chemicals you would advise for fertilising on a 3 times a week? program, for my 190 litres, it will be the standard Trigon lighting at the moment.
This will help me a lot and hopefully help to introduce me to this method.
Also as time goes by I intend to list what equipment that I will be using at the bottom of my messages as I note others do, to help you access and make decisions.
Thanks again AC
Regards
Stuart

 

[SuperColey1]

Personally for someone getting used to dosing and planted tanks I would follow the EI method. Although it can be a PITA water change wise it will force you to get the CO2 right but be much more forgiving on the nutrient side.

Not part of EI but I would first get your lights on timer for an 8 hour photoperiod. You may move up to 10 later but this will limit algae's chances whilst provding the plants plenty of time for their photosynthesis.

Basically EI is this.

CO2 - Again put the solenoid on a timer and set it to start 2 hours before the photoperiod starts and stop 2 hours before the photoperiod ends. Set it up so your DC is green within the first hour of the photoperiod (with the timelag of the DC this would mean CO2 is at 30ppm(ish) when lights are on. I don't need to explain that you need to be a little careful if this means you are upping from your current setup.

Next are the ferts. Macros (NPK) and micros (Trace Elements)

You will have 3 bottles - One for the Potassium Nitrate mix, one for the Potassium Phosphate mix and one for the trace.

Mix them as follows:
Solution 1 (KN) Add 40g of Potassium Nitrate to 500ml of DI water
Solution 2 (KP) Add 15g of Potassium Phosphate to 500ml of DI water
Solution 3 (Trace) Add 15g Trace Elements to 250ml of DI water. You can use the hydrochloric acid in this one if you want but I don't. It is mainly to some fungus/mould. If worried just make up a smaller amount i.e. 6g to 100ml etc.

Now you have your 3 solutions your weekly schedule would be based on a 40-60G tank.

Day 1 - 50% water change then add 30ml of solution 1, 18ml of solution 2
Day 2 - 10ml of solution 3
Day 3 - 30ml of solution 1, 18ml of solution 2
Day 4 - 10ml of solution 3
Day 5 - 30ml of solution 1, 18ml of solution 2
Day 6 - 10ml of solution 3
Day 7 - Do nothing - rest day

The theory here is that you are adding more than the plants are likely to need over days 1-6. The 7th day will take up a bit of the left overs and then the 50% water change will 'reset' the levels.

So you need to buy several things really. More expense but these things will last absolute eons. lol

KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate) powder
KH2PO4 (Potassium Phosphate) powder
Chelated Trace element powder
Cheap digital scales off ebay
DI water from Halfords or Wilkos etc.

I would buy 500g of each powder from Aquaessentials. There is quite a difference between how fine/soluble the powders are from several sources and I have found AquaEssentials much better than some others. 500g of each will last over year in the case of Potassium Nitrate and a couple of years for the other 2. Links below:
http/www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.php?...products_id=474
http/www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.php?...products_id=475
http/www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.php?...products_id=753

They may look expensive at first glance but when you weigh the cost up against buying a decent off the shelf fert over the time period these will last then you are looking at a fraction of the cost in comparison. Fert companies dosing suggestions are tiny compared to what any experienced user will use.

Then I would buy a set of 'herb' scales like these:
http/cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pocket-Digital-Scale...id=p3913.c0.m22

To measure the mls I would suggest either using 10ml (1ml increment) syringes or medicine measuring cup etc.

There you have it. Basic EI for a beginner. You are in a much better position than most people who start on EI because you already have the knowledge of pressurised CO2 and flow is in hand. Most scrimp, start, beg for help and then have to catch up or give up once they realise they need to spend a lot more!!!

Good Luck

AC