Killer Tank Strikes Again

[kribensis12]

I think your temperature is too high.
You can only set to 87F high for Discus that are sick and not eating.
For Rams, you can set up to 85F.
86F is for treating ich if the fish can withstand the heat.

For other fish, it should be below 85F in my opinion.
Warm temperature will reduce the oxygen level. If you have many fish, the tank may also run out of oxygen.
If your thermometer is malfunctioned or not accurate, you could be roasting your fish.
Watch this video:

Anyway, any mass dying or fast dying of fish means you have toxic in the water or bacteria such as Columnaris that can kill them fast or you are altering the water GH, pH.
Bacteria will kill faster than parasites.

For any toxic in the water, just change 100% of water will solve the problem.
You can also use carbon if you suspect something is continuously leeching toxic.

By the way, did you alter the GH, pH?
I heard of a few cases of fish dying quickly due to altering the water pH.
pH should not change more than 0.5 or 0.2-0.3(for sensitive fish) in 24 hours.


For how to save fish affected by toxic, you can also watch the below video from 9 minutes onward.

@Lajos_Detari I appreciate your perspective. I would counter that 87 is not too high - I am connected to several highly experienced breeders who breed Rams (all 4 color varieties) and they raise the fry at 87 and a former Mod on this forum, "Tolak" used to breed high-end Angelfish by the 1000s and he raised all of his fry at 87. My digital thermometer is accurate - I just calibrated it.

The mass dying to me does indicate a toxin but as I mentioned previously, I don't know what it could have possibly been? And to happen 2 separate times?

In relation to kH and gH, I do not have a tester for it but as I handled the water change as I also do (without incident in 7 tanks for years) I am thinking that it is unlikely. It could be possible though - clearly something went very wrong. The rams got moved into a tank with much softer water (out of necessity because obviously something went very wrong) and they seem to be a LOT better.

First off I used to breed large numbers of Apistogramma cacatuoides. Any pair in a 10 gallon is facing death from stress. The tank is too small for their needs, and I would almost expect what happened.

Cacatuoides will die at 87. Rams come from sunlit Llanos habitats, basically savannahs, and they have adapted to hot water. Apistos are generally from more shaded forest habitats, and I bred and raised them at 25-26C max.

Second, the ram fry do tend to die easily, as a delicate species. But you must maintain water stability with fry. Pure RO? Did you change the hardness of their water and blow out their kidneys? That's a blackwater species from almost pure water, bred to tolerate soft tap water and to survive in harder tanks. But any bounce around in hardness levels can kill fry.

I disagree here - I have a breeding pair of cockatoos in a 10g who have been cohabitating successfully for one year with about 12 successful spawns. If you read the thread I linked, it is very obvious that the tank size is not related to their deaths whatsoever.

I do agree that 87 is too hot for Cockatoos - which is why, in my post, you'll see that I do not keep cockatoos in 87 degree water.

Rams are very delicate, correct (I breed black rams too and they are very very delicate). I did use pure RO because I noticed my TDS was higher than I'd like and the water change dropped the TDS by 50 (which would include kH and gH) which is not a huge drop. I do this occasionally and have never had a negative outcome from it - and their symptoms don't seem to match what I'd expect if I had shocked them.

 

[kribensis12]

Update:

Well, all of the remaining fry are doing very well in the 30g. I lost a few within 2 hours adding them, but they were the ones that looked the worst.

I'm still unsure why all of the affected fry had white/opaque coloring on the tips of their fins, but that is resolving currently.

My suspicion is, that based off the feedback here and my own sleuthing, that a combination of things occurred.

1. As they were gasping (and was fixed with an air stone), I suspect that the fish hit a tipping point and were using up all of the available option (which was partly why I was intending to move them to the 30g before all of this happened).
2. That this, in conjunction with a water change, may have caused enough stress to begin killing the fry. It is possible that this stress also led to a fungal/bacterial issue (ie. white opaque color on fins).

My lesson learned: get them into a bigger tank sooner, aerate well and keeping a closer look at parameters when dealing with my fry.


** My unanswerable question does still remain: What killed the cockatoos a year ago in the same tank? At the time the water was stable and there was sufficient oxygen for them.

 

[Lajos_Detari]

Update:

Well, all of the remaining fry are doing very well in the 30g. I lost a few within 2 hours adding them, but they were the ones that looked the worst.

I'm still unsure why all of the affected fry had white/opaque coloring on the tips of their fins, but that is resolving currently.

My suspicion is, that based off the feedback here and my own sleuthing, that a combination of things occurred.

1. As they were gasping (and was fixed with an air stone), I suspect that the fish hit a tipping point and were using up all of the available option (which was partly why I was intending to move them to the 30g before all of this happened).
2. That this, in conjunction with a water change, may have caused enough stress to begin killing the fry. It is possible that this stress also led to a fungal/bacterial issue (ie. white opaque color on fins).

My lesson learned: get them into a bigger tank sooner, aerate well and keeping a closer look at parameters when dealing with my fry.


** My unanswerable question does still remain: What killed the cockatoos a year ago in the same tank? At the time the water was stable and there was sufficient oxygen for them.

Do you have any driftwoods, deco, etc. that might be toxic?

 

[kribensis12]

Do you have any driftwoods, deco, etc. that might be toxic?

Nothing was added in the past year. There is a smidge of driftwood and a few cichlid caves.

 

[Colin_T]

I'm still unsure why all of the affected fry had white/opaque coloring on the tips of their fins, but that is resolving currently.

** My unanswerable question does still remain: What killed the cockatoos a year ago in the same tank? At the time the water was stable and there was sufficient oxygen for them.

The white opaque edge on the fins is excess mucous caused by something in the water irritating the fish. You possibly poisoned the fish when you added the new water. Maybe there was something in the bucket, or there was something that contaminated that lot of R/O water, but they were poisoned by something. The fact they are recovering in a different tank would suggest poisoning in the original tank too.

Do you aerate the R/O water before using it?
Maybe it had lots of carbon dioxide (CO2) in it that dropped the pH and dopped the oxygen (O2) level in the tank, The combination of low pH, high CO2 and warm water (87F) would be a potential killer. Add a contaminant into the mix and you have dead fish.

On the subject of high temperatures for rearing fry, I reared mine at 28C (82F) and they grew just as well as fish reared in warmer water. I found that 28C was the ideal temperature for tropical fish and gave the same growth rates as higher water temperatures but there was less power used, so I save money by having the water slightly cooler.

You should insulate the back, sides and base of your tanks with 1 inch thick polystyrene foam sheets to reduce the load on the heater. Make sure they have coverglass too, to help trap the heat.

A water temperature of 87F will not kill South American dwarf cichlids like Apistogramma cacatuoides or Mikrogeophagus ramirezi. My tanks would sit on that during summer and my cichlids were fine and would breed. Their tanks were 2 foot long x 10 inches wide x 12 inches high. I had a pr in each tank. The did have lots of aeration and that is essential for warm water due to it not being able to hold as much oxygen as cooler water.

As for the A. cacatuoides that died last year, it might have been something in the gravel, water, a new tank (ammonia, etc), or the fish were unwell when you got them. It's a bit hard to tell without seenig pictures and knowing the water quality.

 

[kribensis12]

The white opaque edge on the fins is excess mucous caused by something in the water irritating the fish. You possibly poisoned the fish when you added the new water. Maybe there was something in the bucket, or there was something that contaminated that lot of R/O water, but they were poisoned by something. The fact they are recovering in a different tank would suggest poisoning in the original tank too.

Do you aerate the R/O water before using it?
Maybe it had lots of carbon dioxide (CO2) in it that dropped the pH and dopped the oxygen (O2) level in the tank, The combination of low pH, high CO2 and warm water (87F) would be a potential killer. Add a contaminant into the mix and you have dead fish.

On the subject of high temperatures for rearing fry, I reared mine at 28C (82F) and they grew just as well as fish reared in warmer water. I found that 28C was the ideal temperature for tropical fish and gave the same growth rates as higher water temperatures but there was less power used, so I save money by having the water slightly cooler.

You should insulate the back, sides and base of your tanks with 1 inch thick polystyrene foam sheets to reduce the load on the heater. Make sure they have coverglass too, to help trap the heat.

A water temperature of 87F will not kill South American dwarf cichlids like Apistogramma cacatuoides or Mikrogeophagus ramirezi. My tanks would sit on that during summer and my cichlids were fine and would breed. Their tanks were 2 foot long x 10 inches wide x 12 inches high. I had a pr in each tank. The did have lots of aeration and that is essential for warm water due to it not being able to hold as much oxygen as cooler water.

As for the A. cacatuoides that died last year, it might have been something in the gravel, water, a new tank (ammonia, etc), or the fish were unwell when you got them. It's a bit hard to tell without seenig pictures and knowing the water quality.

Hey Colin.

I was thinking that it was mucous, but it affected every fish on the tip of the fins and I was unsure how likely it is that all of them would have mucous in the same place. I have some insulation that I'm going to put on the backs and sides of the tanks; just haven't gotten around to it yet. I have Reflectix which should be just as good, or better, than an inch of styro.

I just made the RO and didn't think I needed to add oxygen - maybe I should have?

If you peruse the post from last year, you'll see data on water quality etc. The fish had been in my possession for a few months and I moved them to the 10g due to aggression; it was cycled.

UPDATE: The fry that survived were doing well until this morning. They have developed ich, which does not surprise me given the awful experience they've had. I am dosing the tank with aquarium salt and a 1/2 dose of API Ich medication. If it doesn't do the trick, I'll do a full dose - they are just sensitive fish so I don't like to add medication unless it's absolutely necessary.

 

[Colin_T]

I used to aerate r/o water so it had normal levels of dissolved gasses in it.

When all the fish in a tank develop mucous over their body or fins at the same time, you can pretty much guarantee there is something in the water irritating the fish.

Salt doesn't do anything to white spot. Just use the medication or heat treatment (30C/ 86F) for 2 weeks, or at least 1 week after all the white spots have gone.

 

[itiwhetu]

I personally think 50% water changes on a fry tank is too much, I never change more than 25% of the water on any tank.

 

[kribensis12]

I personally think 50% water changes on a fry tank is too much, I never change more than 25% of the water on any tank.

I typically do a 30% water change.

Salt doesn't do anything to white spot. Just use the medication or heat treatmeent (30C/ 86F) for 2 weeks, or at least 1 week after all the white spots have gone.

I disagree here. The research I've done argues, pretty clearly, that salt dehydrates parasites and bacteria on the fish. So it should, in effect, help kill the white spot that is currently on the fish, while the medication should be killing the white spot in it's larval stage.

Do you have any data that suggests otherwise?

 

[Colin_T]

The research I've done argues, pretty clearly, that salt dehydrates parasites and bacteria on the fish. So it should, in effect, help kill the white spot that is currently on the fish, while the medication should be killing the white spot in it's larval stage.

Do you have any data that suggests otherwise?

Someone posted a link on the forum a while back about the white spot parasites and their ability to survive medication and treatments while in the white spot cyst attached to the fish. Unfortunately it is on my computer that died.

While salt does kill a lot of protozoan parasites, those parasites are not protected by a shell. Their bodies are exposed to the water and any medication in it, including salt. The white spot parasite is protected by a shell like substance that prevents medications or salt from affecting it while it is attached to the fish or sitting on the bottom replicating itself. The only time medication can affect the parasite is while it is free swimming and before it finds a new host to attached itself to. If the parasite was affected by salt while protected by the cyst, we could kill it with medication at any stage. But we can only kill it when it's out of the cyst and swimming in the water. The parasite is also found in brackish and saltwater environments.

 

[kribensis12]

A very sad update.

The API Ich medication did nothing at all. I dosed appropriately and do not run carbon in the tanks - the ich only got worse, not better. (meds were not expired)

Last night, I ran carbon in the tank for a few hours to pull out any residual medication w/ a water change. I then added a medication that I just purchased, "Rid Ich" where is a dissolving tablet.

I went to the tank this morning and every single ram fry is dead. I believe the medication is responsible - as a few of the ram fry were not affected by the ich but they are not dead.

It sounds like it was not meant to be for this spawn. I've learned a few lessons and hopefully the next batch will fare better.

 

[Back in the fold]

Does anyone spray any sort of air freshener/cleaner/deodorant in the room that the tank is in?

There is something that everyone needs to be aware of. Seems everybody these days is spraying Febreze or Glade Mist or some such poison into their house on a regular basis. Just because you can't smell it anymore doesn't mean it's gone. It builds up and your air pump injects it right into your prized aquarium. The oxygen carbon dioxide interface at the waters surface sucks it in too. The only thing you should spray into the air is a nice healthy roast beef fart.

 

[kribensis12]

There is something that everyone needs to be aware of. Seems everybody these days is spraying Febreze or Glade Mist or some such poison into their house on a regular basis. Just because you can't smell it anymore doesn't mean it's gone. It builds up and your air pump injects it right into your prized aquarium. The oxygen carbon dioxide interface at the waters surface sucks it in too. The only thing you should spray into the air is a nice healthy roast beef fart.

I don't use sprays near my tanks.

 

[Naughts]

In a couple of weeks these fry have :

• Hot water
• Bacterial meds with"essential" oils
• Pure RO and remeneralised RO
• Move to a new tank with much softer water
• Fluctuating TDS (but no way of measuring GH or KH)
• Salt
• API ich meds
• Rid ich

Stress kills. Sometimes the remedy is worse than the disease.

 

[kribensis12]

In a couple of weeks these fry have :

• Hot water
• Bacterial meds with"essential" oils
• Pure RO and remeneralised RO
• Move to a new tank with much softer water
• Fluctuating TDS (but no way of measuring GH or KH)
• Salt
• API ich meds
• Rid ich

Stress kills. Sometimes the remedy is worse than the disease.

Yes, they have been through a lot. It's worth noting that the temp is not a factor in their stress.

Stress can definitely kill and is, to my belief, the reason that they developed ich. As I am sure you know, ich is in all fishtanks but typically only appears when there is a stressful event and/or as a secondary infection.

Considering that they were (likely) poisoned (unknown at the time), I have no problem stating that the in this scenario, the remedy was not worse than the disease. I did everything within my power to save them - and until they had developed ich, they were doing very well in the new tank.


I just installed rain barrels to begin collecting rain water for the tanks and when those do not have sufficient stores, I will be purchasing RO water from a store in town. Since, as @Colin_T pointed out, it was likely that there was a contaminant in the water, my desire is that this would be a safer solution. I already have a batch of Dark Knight Ram fry in another tank - I'd love to not have a repeat of what occurred with these gold ones.