Is This Velvet Or White Spot On Butterfly Fish Maybe?

[Alex Brown]

Hi can you help me to detect what might be wrong with my fish please. He has had it for a few days now, had in tank for one week.

he is thin, maybe im under feeding, was feeding once a day at first, then increased to 2, as from today he will be fed mixed diet 3 times a day - brine shrimp and sea veggies.

increasing scratching on rocks as from last night. tends to be less infection in morning. still eating fine.

inverts in tank. 3x humbugs in tank.

250l tank
s.g 1.023
ph 8
nitrite 0.05
nitrate 0
ammonia 0.011
alkalinity 2.7

these readings were 3 nights ago. pictures taken tonight.

 

[Alex Brown]

Pictures added.

 

[rabbut]

That whiteish patch on him isn't too clear in the pick. Does it look like slime? Or is it a graze? Are those scales raised or normal?

Brine shrimp don't have much nutritional value, so it may be an idea to try him on some other frozen foods

What test kit do you have? I don't know of any that will measure ammonia and nitrite to 0.0 something accurately. Are those deffinately the readings, as they should be reading zero at all times...

What invertibrates do you have?

I assume you have access to fresh RO water without salt added? How about bicarbonate of soda and a freshwater pH test kit?

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Alex Brown]

I have the RedSea marine lab. They have never read lower for ammonia or nitrite. My test card for nitrite has colour strips for 0, 0.05, 0.1, 0.2, 0.5 and >1. Ammonia cards has 0, 0.25, 0.5, 1.0, 2.5, 5.0 and 7.5. I then do the following calculation which it gives in the instructions;

Example:
1. You have measured a pH of 8.4 and a temp of 26 degrees Celsius.
2. The table gives 14% toxic Ammonia (see shaded area of the table, table in instructions).
3. You have measured a total Ammonia level of 1 ppm (test colour card).
4. The toxic Ammonia level is 14% of 1 mg per litre = 1x14/100=0.14ppm. This level is toxic to fish.

I have access to RO water without salt, and can get biocarbonate of soda from store. Im assuming freshwater pH test is different to the marine pH test kite? What other food do you recomend, I can go to store tomorrow. He looks alot better in shape today, doesnt look thin. I have 1 sand starfish, 5 hermit crabs and 6 snails plus a few hitch hiking crabs. One Pussey coral, 2 sponges. 3 Humbug Damsels.

I would say they are not grazes, even though he does squeeze through tiny gaps in the LR. Slime, possibly. Scales normal, except one seperate patch towards his tail where they seem to intrude inwards.

Let me try get better pictures, sorry for the one above, cheap camera!

Thanks for your help.

 

[SkiFletch]

Mysis shrimp, or some of the marine mix foods. If he's still eating htat's a good sign, but the flicking against rocks is a bad one...

 

[rabbut]

So basically you are saying that the test kits are detecting a low reading of ammoinia and nitrite, that you are then converting using the tables the kit provides to get the total toxic ammonia and nitrite presant?

If this is the case, the flucking and rubbing can be explained by waterquality. Any detectable reading of ammonia or nitrite, toxic or otherwise, will caurse flicking and rubbing. I'd recomend a good sized waterchange if there are detectable readings of ammonia and/or nitrite to reduce them and thus reduce the flicking and rubbing

When any fish is exposed to a detectable level of ammonia or nitrite for a long period of time, it will cause problems In the case of ammonia, any damage is permanant If ammonia and/or nitrite are detectable after adding stock for more than a week or so, you need to look for caurses I have limited marine knowlage, but I do know that Damsels are amosgst the most hardy to ammonia and nitrite being presant and hence why they may not be showing any signs of suffereing. IME in retail, Wimples are very fussy about water quality

Slime is usualy caursed by irritation, from infections, parasites or waterquality For the moment, the latter seems to fit best, unless I've miss-read again...

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Alex Brown]

Thanks ski, I will get him some more nutritional food tomorrow! Just to add, the fish is now a good shape and doesnt look thin or anything. I have been feeding brine shrimp and then some sea veggies . Is this a suitable ammount for a butterfly fish each day? I will replace the brine shrimp with mysis and feed one of the two every day with sea veggies in the afternoon.

Thats great advice thanks rabbut. I will be doing a 50-70% water change first thing tomorrow monring. Just to confirm, its safe to take that much water out and add in freshly made up saltwater? I will be adding it in at the same tempreature and s.g level as the water coming out. Whats your thoughts on a 100% water change? Is it nessesary?

Doing such large water change doesnt make my tank mature again does it?

Last question, should I be cleaning out my external filter every few months? It contains bio balls, some type of grey ceramic pieces, filter floss/pad and phosphate removeal media which i added last weekend.

Cheers, Alex.

 

[rabbut]

A 50-70% waterchange will be fine so long as you temperature, pH and SG match the replacement water. 100% is a little excessive in this case, but wouldn't do any harm The live rock and filter need to be kept wet at all times

The mechanical filter medias you run, like floss, should be washed in freshwater every week without fail. You want to keep those medias clean so that they don't turn your exturnal filter into a nitrate factory. If you are running the Berlin system of filtration, you would actually also be trying to prevent them going biological also In your case, you are trying to keep the filter biological ATM, so only the mechanical filters should be washed in freshwater

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Alex Brown]

Sorry I lost you on the filter information.

Can you recomend a lower maintanence filter setup? I have about 45kg liverock. I went into my filter today, the floss feels like cotton wool, if I picked it up it would fall apart. Shall I replace this? Do the ceramic pieces need a freshwater clean too? And I leave the bio balls un-touched right?

I did a 60L (1/3) water change today, no change in test results. Is this normal?

Fish is stille ating and swimming fine, scratching reduced a fair amount.

I dont understand the difference in mechanical and biological. Does mechanical use things like floss to take the particles out the water? And what does biological do? Im right in thinking biological is liverock correct?

 

[rabbut]

Liverock is Biological, as is the Bio-balls as well as any ceramic media with a pitted surface. Smooth ceramic is Mechanical media, as is the floss.

Biological filters remove ammonia, and mechanical filtration is for floating particles

I would surgest you test some new RO water, as the readings should have changed since you waterchanged. If they diden't either the toxins built-up a fair bit between the test and the waterchange, or the RO unit's membrane is due for replacement, or more likely the test kit is dodgy

The most low-maintanance system I have used is the strait foreward berlin system I have also used DSB and Bio-mechanical systems. The Berlin system is basically 1KG of live rock per 10l of water minimum and 20X an hour's worth of flow in the tank with heavy protien skimming. No other filtration would be used in a Berlin system, and a sencibly stocked tank would only need a 20% waterchange once a week/fortnight. I know many reefers using the Berlin system though don't do any waterchanges unless their corals start closing up, which can be many years at a time...

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Alex Brown]

Ah, I thought Berlin used an external filter also. Is there any harm in me using my external filter to remove particles in the water, and keep the bio balls to add some extra bio filter to the system? I wouldnt use any chemical methods.

So bio balls, ceramic pieces, filter floss and phosphate remover pad. Is that usefull to run along side a Berlin setup? I would clean the filter once a month.

Quick question, with no external filter, dont you get a big build-up of particles in the water?

Thanks, Alex.

 

[rabbut]

In a berlin system you would avoid running any aditional biological filtration alongside the liverock, as it will only lead to high nitrate level unless cleaned regularly Same goes for mechanical media If I were to run an exturnal, it would contain Smooth Ceramics, Floss and Phosban (removes, Phosphates, Silicates, Disolved Organics and Arsnic. Why the latter would be in a well establised tank is anyones guess, but when buying and importing your own fish into an LFS, it is great if you suspect the imported used "Dodgy methods" to catch the stock... It is also the only Phosphate remover that I have read regular positive reviews on...)

My water is always Gin Clear without an exturnal filter running (appart from directly after algea claning, that tints it for an hour or two, but an exturnal couldn't help with that much though...)

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Alex Brown]

Thats good advise, thanks Rabbut. So I might aswell take out the bio filtration from my external, and let the live rock do the job? I have 45kg which is well established, growing calcium algea and various macro algea.

I am getting a hell of alot of red algea on my sand, and the stringy green algea on my rocks. Do you have any advise that might help reduce these growing? I clean daily and they always come back, sometimes after just a few hours.

To update on the fish, I gave him a medicated dip and a fresh water dip this week. He ended up with pop-eye, white spot and fluks. His eyes have reduced about 50% over last night and he is more active than ever today.

Could you tell me what smooth ceramics would do? Is this mechanical filtration?

 

[rabbut]

I would let the liverock do it's job unaided

Smooth Ceramics are mechanical media

Hair algea, and what sounds like Cyno both have excess nutrients as a trigger, so your phosphate removing resin may will be saturated and hence leading to these blooms. I would get some Phosban in there. Cyno is also often triggered by a lack of flow and low oxygen levels also, so the ammount of flow and it's positioning in the tankmay need some attention

All the best
Rabbut