Is this fry fat, or does it have worms?

[outofwater]

Hi everyone, last Saturday I went by a nearby lfs and bought 3 ottos. Upon arrival at home I noticed a small, unknown fry in the bag.
Couple of days later an otto died, so I went back to the store with the fish and water sample. After confirming all params were OK, (0 ammonia and nitrites, 10 nitrates, pH somewhere between 7 and 7.5) they gave me a replacement otto.
Once again upon arrival at home I found this bag ALSO had another fry too, this one noticeably bigger than the first one.

Today another of the original ottos died. And I noticed that the bigger fry had this long poop, however it looked too clear/whitish to me and the fish just looks too fat, especially when compared to its smaller "brother" but perhaps they're not even the same fish... I mean they do look different overall. But that's another, minor issue/question.

Anyway, hope these pictures are good enough, it took me over half an hour of patiently sitting by the Q tank to take them. In that timespan this little fish dropped 3 deuces. The first and longest one, which reached almost to the tip of its tail fin, the second one, which was somewhere close to the beginning of the tail fin, and the third one which seemed somewhat segmented, was a about half the size of the first one, and it actually broke off into 2 pieces. That gave me some peace of mind (I wouldn't think a worm would be so visibly segmented, nor break off in pieces) but I seek your more experienced opinion, as I was about to put these fish in my main tank, but now I'm worried that they might bring more unexpected guests with them.

None of the other fish, including the 2 which unfortunately died; show anything abnormal at all.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Colin_T]

could have worms and be fat.

they have excess mucous on their tail. make sure the water is good (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, less than 20ppm nitrate, pH above 7.0)

 

[Lynnzer]

I've never seen oto's that got fat. Even in tanks that have a tremendous amount of algae they always appear to be slim(ish) and lively.
I know it sounds repulsive but if you could lift out one of the poops you should be able to see if it simply squashes or has a harder feel to it indicating a creature with skin of sorts.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

The fry are guppy fry, unrelated to the otos. Guppy fry often wind up born in stores and can wind up travelling through the sump systems or get missed in a tank and accidentally bagged with something else. I got a "freebie" guppy fry this way too.

Otos are all wild-caught, and are very delicate fish that suffer tremendously during catching, being warehoused, shipped to stores then finally to home tanks. Big losses are common and it doesn't necessarily mean your new otos are sick (although they can be, parasites from the wild or an illness caught in the store/from the stress of it all), they're often half starved by the time they make it to you home tank sadly. Feed them up as best you can and give them a good long time in quarantine. Even more so now since the guppy fry are sickly.

The guppy fry look in pretty rough shape. Flatworms are known for being segmented and breaking off, so that doesn't disqualify them, and I'd honestly be surprised if they survive, I'm sorry. The tail rotting, fins clamped, bloated - they don't look in the best shape I'm afraid.


ETA: DEFINITELY don't transfer anything from this tank to the main one. The guppy fry, one is so fin clamped that it's pinned - they're in a really bad way. Never put sick fish in your main tank, and the otos/QT tank will likely need to be wormed now, since they have been exposed to the guppy fry who I'd bet do have worms I'm afraid. They usually do, and the "poop" doesn't look good either. But worming treatment might be rough to go through for the otos when they're still recovering from their ordeal, so I'd be tempted to feed them up and let them settle more before putting them through medication rounds. Make sure not to share equipment like buckets and nets between your QT tank and main, so you don't transfer worm eggs.

 

[GaryE]

That's one for quarantine, and why we should do that. Give it time, and the fish may rebound, but less than 6-8 weeks of QT is living dangerously when the fish looks like that. A rule of fishkeeping is always look a gift horse in the mouth - the neglected, unidentified fry in pet stores are not given the tlc they need. No store can do that.

 

[outofwater]

could have worms and be fat.

they have excess mucous on their tail. make sure the water is good (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, less than 20ppm nitrate, pH above 7.0)

Thank you @Colin_T yes, water across my 3 tanks is 0 ammonia and nitrites, and nitrates between 5 and 10, depending on the tank. The pH is stable across all 3 as well in the 7 to 7.5 range.

Otos are all wild-caught, and are very delicate fish that suffer tremendously during catching, being warehoused, shipped to stores then finally to home tanks. Big losses are common and it doesn't necessarily mean your new otos are sick (although they can be, parasites from the wild or an illness caught in the store/from the stress of it all), they're often half starved by the time they make it to you home tank sadly. Feed them up as best you can and give them a good long time in quarantine. Even more so now since the guppy fry are sickly.

I've read about how horribly these are caught and treated, I won't be buying them anymore after this regardless of what happens in the end. The smaller fry seems a bit weak but swims around and goes looking for food just as energetically as the larger one. I'm feeding them finely crushed bugbites, since I don't have fry nor planned to, I don't have fry-specific food. Ill defrost some frozen bloodworm and try to see if they eat that.

The ottos are not eating too much if at all, from what I see. I added a couple of algae-covered bamboo stalks, I saw them going at it, and I started a set of "green rocks" to keep in rotation from now on, hope the algae grows soon. I hope they learn to eat pellets/tablets like the other otto in the main tank. The fat fry seemed a lot slimmer today... then again I was tired yesterday at 1 am doing this and perhaps/hopefully he was just bloated. None of the poop was moving or wiggling around that I could see anyway.. I'll keep a close eye on all of them and get deworming meds if needed. I hope these 2 ottos make it and thrive once I put them in the main tank and wouldn't mind the 2 guppies, I hope they make it too.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I've read about how horribly these are caught and treated, I won't be buying them anymore after this regardless of what happens in the end.

I'm so torn on that issue! I love otos so much... I only found out about their capture/shipping experiences and how delicate they are after I'd already bought eight of them, and was keeping them in hard water before I came here and learned about soft/hard water!

I don't think you should stop buying them. I intend to get more, and keep trying to get them to breed. Whether or not to buy them is down to personal principles I think. I don't want them to go through a rough time or experience high mortality rates either. But, they aren't endangered in the wild, so that part is one thing, and they're also they're hard to breed, but in huge demand in the hobby for their algae eating.
So my stance is that I want responsible and caring hobbyists to keep them. In a decent group size, in the right tank conditions, they have been bred in people's home tanks before. If we as a hobby can supply home-bred otocinclus, people would love to have home-bred over wild caught, and that would reduce demand for wild caught ones.

The important part is knowing ahead of time how rough they tend to have it when caught/shipped/at the store, so you can prepare a decent quarantine tank coated in algae/with green rocks etc, as you have done, and you can choose the healthiest looking ones in the store. Then you have a better chance of making their transition as easy as possible.

The ottos are not eating too much if at all, from what I see. I added a couple of algae-covered bamboo stalks, I saw them going at it, and I started a set of "green rocks" to keep in rotation from now on, hope the algae grows soon. I hope they learn to eat pellets/tablets like the other otto in the main tank.

Try to get a look at their tummies when they sucker themselves to the glass. If their tummy is nicely rounded then they're getting enough to eat. Keep trying with the supplimental foods - they're just not used to those as a food source, I think they seem to ignore that stuff for a while, then when they happen to land on it and realise it tastes good, they get the idea! Mine used to rarely touch any food I added for a long time, but bellies were always rounded and there was plenty of algae in the tank for them. The "green rocks" are definitely a good idea.

The fat fry seemed a lot slimmer today... then again I was tired yesterday at 1 am doing this and perhaps/hopefully he was just bloated. None of the poop was moving or wiggling around that I could see anyway.. I'll keep a close eye on all of them and get deworming meds if needed. I hope these 2 ottos make it and thrive once I put them in the main tank and wouldn't mind the 2 guppies, I hope they make it too.

Bug Bites are perfect for the guppy fry, it's a really good food, so no worries there. I use the same stuff, and it's easy to crush it smaller with the back of a spoon or something. Fingers crossed for you that they make it!

 

[outofwater]

Well, as of a few minutes ago all "new" ottos are gone. They looked ok this morning, came back home found both at the bottom of the tank. The smallest fry is gone too, can't see it anywhere. The older fry is still around and looks ok. I will put it in my main tank on Monday if it's still around, let it be what it may. I have no clue as to what could have killed the ottos OR the small fry, but this is a bummer. I had done a water change early afternoon yesterday, checked params before and after. Perfect on both
(0 ammonia and nitrites, 5 nitrates) and use the same water conditioner across my tanks: api (NOT the one with aloe).

All I can say is this sucks.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Well, as of a few minutes ago all "new" ottos are gone. They looked ok this morning, came back home found both at the bottom of the tank. The smallest fry is gone too, can't see it anywhere. The older fry is still around and looks ok. I will put it in my main tank on Monday if it's still around, let it be what it may. I have no clue as to what could have killed the ottos OR the small fry, but this is a bummer. I had done a water change early afternoon yesterday, checked params before and after. Perfect on both
(0 ammonia and nitrites, 5 nitrates) and use the same water conditioner across my tanks: api (NOT the one with aloe).

All I can say is this sucks.

That really does suck - I'm sorry

I'd urge you not to put the remaining fry in your main tank though... why on earth would you do that?? The whole point of a quarantine is to make sure any new stock is disease free before adding it to your main. You've lost four fish from there, and the day after most of them die, you want to transfer a sickly fish and whatever may have killed the others into your established tank...!

 

[outofwater]

So, went by the shop today (had put the ottos in a freezer bag). Took water sample and guy tested for ammonia, nitrates and pH. Last time (when the first otto died) the other guy tested ammonia and nitrates. The pH was off the chart, literally.
The guy still was kind enough to offer replacements, however he asked me to come back in a week, wirh a new water sample to ensure the pH was down. He said off the tap it comes at above 8, and that this possibly was the reason for the ottos demise.
I was shocked so I tested the water right away once I returned home. I must have put too much reacting agent the first time as the water was nearly black. So I did another test, then another one with a different reacting agent bottle (I have 2 API test kits on hand) and then for good measure I used a strip too.

Tests confirmed that my tank water is good, somewhere between 7 and 7.5.

I then decided to test it off the tap and confirmed what the shop guy told me. The water here is way hard. Off the tap it's off the color chart.

So, I still have no idea of what killed the ottos, and I'm thankful that the shop owner is willing to replace them next week, I'm just frustrated about this.

BTW, the lone guppy fry (the bigger one) is still kicking around and shows no signs of illness, parasites or stress.

Still in the Q tank, btw.

Pictures of one of the second test vials, and a side by side between tank and tap water

I'm so torn about what to get... still want the poor lonely otto to have some mates, but I don't think I can handle another round of dead fish.

 

[outofwater]

About to do the weekly water change on all tanks. (3, the mts struggle is real)
Here's a picture of hitchhiker #2, doing well. Haven't treated the tank for worms or anything, and he seems to be doing well. I'm going for a visit to the better of the chain stores next week, I'll get a dewormer and we'll see how he's doing then, and treat if needed.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

About to do the weekly water change on all tanks. (3, the mts struggle is real)
Here's a picture of hitchhiker #2, doing well. Haven't treated the tank for worms or anything, and he seems to be doing well. I'm going for a visit to the better of the chain stores next week, I'll get a dewormer and we'll see how he's doing then, and treat if needed.

Glad he's still hanging in there!
Check the ingredients of whichever wormer medicine you see - some don't really do anything to help, and can give a false sense of confidence. I used a cheap generic wormer on my fish that my store recommended, and six months later or so, I was losing fish to camallanus worms. Colin's pinned thread about worms gives details about specific ingredients to kill roundworms and ones to treat flatworms.

 

[outofwater]

Look at him! I think 1 or 2 more weeks and he'll be going to the main tank.

 

[Colin_T]

Look at him! I think 1 or 2 more weeks and he'll be going to the main tank.

He looks good, and I reckon he is like me, enjoys his food a little bit too much

 

[outofwater]

He looks good, and I reckon he is like me, enjoys his food a little bit too much

He's like my dwarf gourami, when he sees anyone walking past the tank he comes up and starts patrolling the surface like he hasn't eaten in ages. Just want him to get a bit bigger (larger) before I move him out of the quarantine tank. I'm starting to think he'll need some friends though, from what I read guppies do better in numbers. I'm thinking a couple of other males, as I don't want them breeding.