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Is this Columnaris? Pineconing Guppy

cherryshrimp

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I have had these guppies for 7 months now. Initially, one of the tequila sunrise died within a week of being added to the tank. About 2 months later, another tequila sunrise withered away (bent spine, very skinny) over the course of 4-5 days and passed away overnight, entirely consumed by other fish and bottom feeders. The rainbows then grew too big and started nipping the guppies, so I moved the guppies into the zebra danio tank. Some of the nipped guppies developed fin rot in this new tank (Pic 1), which has spread to the Danios (Pic 2) and still not gone away. I have not been able to beat the fin rot in 3 months now, tried endless clean water and then meds. Over these 3 months, the last surviving tequila sunrise has grown very bent in the spine, albeit very slowly. Today he is finally pineconing (Pic 3), and spine looking bent as ever. In the last month or so, 2 of the guppies developed very stringy poop and passed away shortly after (Pic 4). In this same month, the Danios also developed white patches and began flashing (Pic 5). In response to this, I've treated with Paracleanse (General Cure), and haven't seen any stringy poop, the Danios stopped flashing and 90% of the white patches are gone.

So now, I have 5 guppies, 6 zebra danios, 1 BN pleco in the 20 gallon tank. Fin rot still going strong. The tequila sunrise is now pineconed, so I need advice on that more urgently. On the grander scale, I need to figure out how to clear this tank up. Is it a slow acting strain of Columnaris?

Water parameters, steady week to week:
Ph: 7.4-7.6
Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate <25-30
GH: 8-10
KH: 2
TDS: 300-350

Pic 1:
Screen Shot 2020-10-15 at 11.56.09 AM.png

Pic 2:
Screen Shot 2020-10-15 at 12.13.45 PM.png

Pic 3:
IMG_0054.JPG


Pic 4:
IMG_9475.PNG

Pic 5:
IMG_9472.PNG
 
Last edited:
Nobody? I tried to make it shorter so someone might read it. I guess these forums are now overrun, I can’t get an answer on any of them :( new fishkeepers are in the dark now.
 
The guppy looks like it has dropsy, for which there is no real cure. I can't help with any of your other problems.
Maybe @Colin_T or @Deanasue can help you.
 
Nobody? I tried to make it shorter so someone might read it. I guess these forums are now overrun, I can’t get an answer on any of them :( new fishkeepers are in the dark now.
I’m sorry but had fish issues of my own today. I would euthanize the guppy. It could be fish TB and you don’t want the other fish eating it. Your fin rot could be bacterial and may respond to Furan-2. Pic looks like you still have an internal parasite problem. @Colin_T is better at that so let him wake up and come on. (HE’s in Australia).
 
That’s all we can give you for now until Colin wakes up. I’m sorry.
 
Sorry for your dilemma (sp) I too have found little to no help for things I've tried to post. I guess people are just too busy these days. But I would have liked to know somebody cared. After losing my three Calico fancy goldfish that I fought so hard to diagnose and treat my research led to Costia, and I'm told had I continued treating as an ick problem I may have been able to save them. I dont know if its true but it broke my heart to think it could been so easy. Anyway, I am more into botia not anywhere near an expert but I agree the pineconig looks like dropsy. I have had good luck with epsom salts (very little) in a small bowl of water. You just have to watch for stress and remove him and lower the concentration of epsom salts. Its really just a stop gap, but i have a large chocolate francy goldfish that has gone months between treatments and is currently fat, happy and heading for a larger home. Pond style. I know it wont always work but maybe it helps their comfort while they heal themselves. Im really not extremely religious but prayer really does help. Im here and i care. Hang in there. Maybe try the above until you can talk to an expert.
 
I’m sorry but had fish issues of my own today. I would euthanize the guppy. It could be fish TB and you don’t want the other fish eating it. Your fin rot could be bacterial and may respond to Furan-2. Pic looks like you still have an internal parasite problem. @Colin_T is better at that so let him wake up and come on. (HE’s in Australia).

I've tried Maracyn and the fin rot was unresponsive. Actually it spiked my ammonia and made things worse, that was months ago. Is it worth giving Furan a shot?

Which pic makes it look like fish have parasites? The guppy with stringy poop has long passed, as did the other who developed stringy poop. This pineconed guppy has never had stringy poop. He has something else going on. Should I remove him to a little QT tank to live out his life alone in peace?
 
I've tried Maracyn and the fin rot was unresponsive. Actually it spiked my ammonia and made things worse, that was months ago. Is it worth giving Furan a shot?

Which pic makes it look like fish have parasites? The guppy with stringy poop has long passed, as did the other who developed stringy poop. This pineconed guppy has never had stringy poop. He has something else going on. Should I remove him to a little QT tank to live out his life alone in peace?
If pics are of deceased fish then no need for parasite treatment. You can move the fish to. quarantine tank if you choose. I find Furan-2 to be superior to Maracyn. I normally pair it with Kanaplex for treatment.
 
Maracyn is an anti-biotic and will wipe out filter bacteria. Furan 2 is another anti-biotic. These should only be used on known bacterial infections that have not responded to normal fish medications. Improper use and mis-use of anti-biotics has lead to drug resistant bacteria that kill people, birds, animals and fish.

---------------------
The yellow guppy (pic 3) has dropsy and should be euthanised.

The yellow snakeskin guppy (pic 4) has an internal problem. This causes the stringy white poop and can be caused by an internal bacterial or protozoan infection, or intestinal worms. (See information below for stringy white poop).

---------------------
The black guppy and danios have damaged tails. This doesn't look like fin rot in the danios and could be physical damage from displaying or biting. The guppy could have early stage fin rot.

Fin rot is caused by poor water quality and or a dirty tank, which damages the tissue and allows bad bacteria to get in and infect the fish. Cleaning the tank up and adding salt usually fixes the problem unless it's a bad case, and this isn't.

Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

Add salt, (see directions below).

---------------------
SALT
You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt), sea salt or swimming pool salt to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate will not affect plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

---------------------
STRINGY WHITE POOP

Fish do a stringy white poop for several reasons.
1) Internal Bacterial Infections causes the fish to stop eating, swell up like a balloon, breath heavily at the surface or near a filter outlet, do stringy white poop, and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms. This cannot normally be cured because massive internal organ failure has already occurred.


-----
2) Internal Protozoan Infections cause the fish to lose weight rapidly (over a week or two), fish continues to eat and swim around but not as much as normal, does stringy white poop. If not treated the fish dies a week or so after these symptoms appear. Metronidazole normally works well for this.

There is a medication (API General Cure) that contains Praziquantel and Metronidazole.

It's interesting that API and the Californian government have listed Metronidazole as a carcinogen. That's a concern considering it was widely used to treat intestinal infections in people.

Anyway, if you use this or any medication, handle with care, don't ingest or inhale the medication, and wash hands with soapy water after treating the fish or working in the tank.


-----
3) Intestinal Worms like tapeworm and threadworms cause the fish to lose weight, continue eating and swimming normally, and do a stringy white poop. Fish can do this for months and not be too badly affected. In some cases, fish with a bad worm infestation will actually gain weight and get fat and look like a pregnant guppy. This is due to the huge number of worms inside the fish.

Livebearers like guppies, mollies, swordtails & platies are regularly infected with gill flukes and intestinal worms. If the fish are still eating well, then worms is the most likely cause.

You can use Praziquantel to treat tapeworm and gill flukes. And Levamisole to treat thread/ round worms. If you can't find these medications, look for Flubendazole, which treats both lots of worms.

Remove carbon from filters before treatment and increase aeration/ surface turbulence to maximise oxygen levels in the water.

You treat the fish once a week for 4 weeks. The first treatment will kill any worms in the fish. The second, third and forth treatments kill any baby worms that hatch from eggs inside the fish's digestive tract.

Treat every fish tank in the house at the same time to prevent cross contamination.
You do a 75% water change and complete gravel clean 24-48 hours after treatment.
Clean the filter 24 hours after treatment too.

Do not use the 2 medications together. If you want to treat both medications in a short space of time, use Praziquantel on day one. Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate on day 2 & 3. Treat the tank with Levamisole on day 4 and do a 75% water change and gravel clean on day 5, 6 & 7 and then start with Praziquantel again on day 8.

The water changes will remove most of the medication so you don't overdose the fish the next time you treat them. The gravel cleaning will suck out any worms and eggs that have been expelled by the fish. Repeating the treatment for 3-4 doses at weekly intervals will kill any worms that hatch from eggs. At the end of the treatment you will have healthier fish.
 
Maracyn is an anti-biotic and will wipe out filter bacteria. Furan 2 is another anti-biotic. These should only be used on known bacterial infections that have not responded to normal fish medications. Improper use and mis-use of anti-biotics has lead to drug resistant bacteria that kill people, birds, animals and fish.

---------------------
The yellow guppy (pic 3) has dropsy and should be euthanised.

The yellow snakeskin guppy (pic 4) has an internal problem. This causes the stringy white poop and can be caused by an internal bacterial or protozoan infection, or intestinal worms. (See information below for stringy white poop).

---------------------
The black guppy and danios have damaged tails. This doesn't look like fin rot in the danios and could be physical damage from displaying or biting. The guppy could have early stage fin rot.

Fin rot is caused by poor water quality and or a dirty tank, which damages the tissue and allows bad bacteria to get in and infect the fish. Cleaning the tank up and adding salt usually fixes the problem unless it's a bad case, and this isn't.

Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

Add salt, (see directions below).

---------------------
SALT
You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt), sea salt or swimming pool salt to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate will not affect plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

---------------------
STRINGY WHITE POOP

Fish do a stringy white poop for several reasons.
1) Internal Bacterial Infections causes the fish to stop eating, swell up like a balloon, breath heavily at the surface or near a filter outlet, do stringy white poop, and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms. This cannot normally be cured because massive internal organ failure has already occurred.


-----
2) Internal Protozoan Infections cause the fish to lose weight rapidly (over a week or two), fish continues to eat and swim around but not as much as normal, does stringy white poop. If not treated the fish dies a week or so after these symptoms appear. Metronidazole normally works well for this.

There is a medication (API General Cure) that contains Praziquantel and Metronidazole.

It's interesting that API and the Californian government have listed Metronidazole as a carcinogen. That's a concern considering it was widely used to treat intestinal infections in people.

Anyway, if you use this or any medication, handle with care, don't ingest or inhale the medication, and wash hands with soapy water after treating the fish or working in the tank.


-----
3) Intestinal Worms like tapeworm and threadworms cause the fish to lose weight, continue eating and swimming normally, and do a stringy white poop. Fish can do this for months and not be too badly affected. In some cases, fish with a bad worm infestation will actually gain weight and get fat and look like a pregnant guppy. This is due to the huge number of worms inside the fish.

Livebearers like guppies, mollies, swordtails & platies are regularly infected with gill flukes and intestinal worms. If the fish are still eating well, then worms is the most likely cause.

You can use Praziquantel to treat tapeworm and gill flukes. And Levamisole to treat thread/ round worms. If you can't find these medications, look for Flubendazole, which treats both lots of worms.

Remove carbon from filters before treatment and increase aeration/ surface turbulence to maximise oxygen levels in the water.

You treat the fish once a week for 4 weeks. The first treatment will kill any worms in the fish. The second, third and forth treatments kill any baby worms that hatch from eggs inside the fish's digestive tract.

Treat every fish tank in the house at the same time to prevent cross contamination.
You do a 75% water change and complete gravel clean 24-48 hours after treatment.
Clean the filter 24 hours after treatment too.

Do not use the 2 medications together. If you want to treat both medications in a short space of time, use Praziquantel on day one. Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate on day 2 & 3. Treat the tank with Levamisole on day 4 and do a 75% water change and gravel clean on day 5, 6 & 7 and then start with Praziquantel again on day 8.

The water changes will remove most of the medication so you don't overdose the fish the next time you treat them. The gravel cleaning will suck out any worms and eggs that have been expelled by the fish. Repeating the treatment for 3-4 doses at weekly intervals will kill any worms that hatch from eggs. At the end of the treatment you will have healthier fish.

Thanks for the help Colin. My problem with 75% water changes is that my tap ph is 8.5 but aerates and drops to a steady 7.5 in the tanks. 75% water change means my tank ph spikes to 8.2, then slowly drops back to 7.5 over the course of a few hours. Doing this daily seems very stressful on the fish, and might be why this keeps getting worse, as I’ve tried weekly daily water changes multiple times. Do you have any idea how I can work around this?

In terms of the stringy poop, it was definitely an internal bacterial infection. The affected fish developed stringy poop and were dead within days. After that I went ahead and attacked it with General Cure right away. I’m on the 3rd round of GC, and so far no stringy poops have appeared, and 95% of the white patches that appeared on danios is gone.

So I will remove the dropsy guppy to his own tank, and likely euthanize soon. That just leaves the fin rot to be addressed. It’s zebra danios, guppies, a BN pleco, and some assassin snails, will they all be safe under the first level of salt dose? Will salt really be enough to beat the fin rot?

Thanks again for your help.
 
Get a large plastic rubbish bin or storage container and fill it with tap water. Aerate it for 24 hours and then dechlorinate it and use it in the tank. Allowing the tap water to aerate in a separate container will help the pH come down and then you can do bigger water changes without affecting the pH in the tank.

The dose rate of salt (2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) is safe for all fresh water fish.

Salt and cleaning the tank usually fixes early stage fin rot.
 
The black guppy and danios have damaged tails. This doesn't look like fin rot in the danios and could be physical damage from displaying or biting. The guppy could have early stage fin rot.

Fin rot is caused by poor water quality and or a dirty tank, which damages the tissue and allows bad bacteria to get in and infect the fish. Cleaning the tank up and adding salt usually fixes the problem unless it's a bad case, and this isn't.

Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

Add salt,

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.
Get a large plastic rubbish bin or storage container and fill it with tap water. Aerate it for 24 hours and then dechlorinate it and use it in the tank. Allowing the tap water to aerate in a separate container will help the pH come down and then you can do bigger water changes without affecting the pH in the tank.

The dose rate of salt (2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) is safe for all fresh water fish.

Salt and cleaning the tank usually fixes early stage fin rot.
Sorry to be a creep, but OP,I stalked your post history and see that Colin also thinks that this is likely fin damage caused by nipping, rather than a classic case of fin rot bought on by bacterial infection or poor water quality.

I think you need to separate the danios and guppies into separate tanks. The BN pleco can go with either of them. Since the danios are breeding as well, they'd be better in their own tank, perhaps with a larger school than just six of them once treatment has been completed.

Once the worming treatments have all been completed, and guppies are in their own tank, start the guppies on the higher salt treatment Colin described above. He also described how to aerate your water in a large container for 24 hours before a water change to fix the pH issue, so that you can do daily water changes.

I really think that this is the root of the issue. The worms were a big problem and you've just began the right treatment. The fin rot will be fixed by separating the guppies from the danios, arranging the guppy tank with lots of hardscape and plants (real or fake) to provide hiding places and break lines of sight which will reduce aggression between the guppies. Then the salt treatment and large daily water changes will allow their tails to heal. The treatment won't work if the danios are continuing to shred the guppies tails.
 

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