Is It Better To Remove Ammonia "Immediately" Or...

jarthel

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let it go through the nitrogen cycle so it would end up as nitrate (which I believe are good for plants)?

there are various filter media that can remove ammonia with zeolite being the cheapest I believe.

Any thoughts?

Thank you
 
You do not remove ammonia with zeolite, instead you remove it by way of water changes. It is never better to leave ammonia in a tank with fish in it.
 
You do not remove ammonia with zeolite, instead you remove it by way of water changes. It is never better to leave ammonia in a tank with fish in it.
according to various websites I've seen you can.

http://www.lenntech.com/zeolites-removal.htm

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/zeolite.htm

http://www.rena.net/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=489 (even rena says it can remove ammonia)

unless I misunderstood what they said.

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but whether zeolite can remove ammonia is besides the point though.

the topic remains unanswered. :)
 
In what state of tank is this question aimed at? A tank during cycling? A fully cycled tank?

Agree with oldman, ammonia in a tank thats has fish present is never a good thing. At levels of 1ppm and above ammonia can do permanent damage to fish in as short as 1 hour.

Zeolite is not recommended, yes it removes ammonia from the tank BUT the problem with zeolite is that it only uses up ammonia for 1-2 months and when the zeolite is "full" it stops absorbing ammonia and there is no way of knowing when the zeolite is "full" meaning that daily water testing is required as once the zeolite is "full" then the ammonia levels in the tank will rocket.

Zeolite is a good thing to have in stock for emergencies, but it in no way should be used as a long term alternative to cycling a tank, also zeolite will stop a tank from cycling, which you dont want

Andy
 
Zeolite is not recommended, yes it removes ammonia from the tank BUT the problem with zeolite is that it only uses up ammonia for 1-2 months and when the zeolite is "full" it stops absorbing ammonia and there is no way of knowing when the zeolite is "full" meaning that daily water testing is required as once the zeolite is "full" then the ammonia levels in the tank will rocket.

but the ammonia-removing media (doesn't have to zeolite as there are others like those from seachem) can treated as part of canister cleaning routine. like once a month, this ammonia-removing media is replaced with new ones.

also zeolite will stop a tank from cycling, which you dont want

Andy

any articles/discussion on this? I've searched the net but came up empty. thank you
 
Zeolite absorbs ammonia until it is "full" and cant absorb anymore, this usually takes around 1-2 months, so in this period where no ammonia is present then a tank can not cycle, presuming the tank hasnt been cycled in the first place. If the tank is already cycled then you run the risk of the beneficial bacteria being starved of ammonia and dying off.

You could if you want to, never cycle a tank, replace zeolite monthly and things SHOULD be fine, but why would you want to?

1. If the zeolite gets used up, there is no way of knowing except daily testing. Once the zeolite is full it stops absorbing ammonia so ammonia levels will then rise in the tank, quite often rocket overnight as there isnt any beneficial bacteria to deal with them.

2. Why pay money for zeolite or any other ammonia reducing/removing products when cycling is absolutely free? Natures way is the best way.

Cycling is a free and easy (fishless) method of ensuring a healthy tank.

Andy
 
unless you're fishlessly cycling the tank there should be no ammonia at all in the tank. .25ppm at very most. you're right in thinking the ammonia will eventually be turned into nitrate through the nitrogen cycle, but ammonia and nitrite are much more harmful to fish than nitrate so you need to make sure there is no trace of either when fish are in the tank.

plants do consume nitrate, but they have to convert it back into ammonia. if pure ammonia is on offer they'd rather take that. but plants only consume trace amount, so if you have ammonia in your tank at levels you can read on a test then the plants themselves will have little effect
 
I think Andy has already given the essence of an answer that I would give. Zeolites work fine and are very good at removing ammonia while they are actively working. When they stop working it is rather sudden and then you must fall back on whatever biological controls you have managed to build. If you have been effective in completely removing ammonia with zeolites, there is nothing the bacteria could have used to develop. In that situation, you are back where you are today except that you have become fairly comfortable not doing any water changes. Then bang, tomorrow, you need to do a 50% water change or a zeolite change. A biological filter approach is much more stable and much less trouble in the long run. That is why we recommend that you do a cycle by limiting the ammonia build to safe levels and letting the bacteria colonies build up. You can, as was suggested, run a tank with only zeolites to control ammonia. I did it that way back in the 1970s. I will no longer do that or recommend it because of the number of fish I lost to seemingly small bobbles in the chemistry controls.
 
Hello, when I first started it was with a fish in cycle :blush: (didn't know any better then) and I too was told not to do water changes for at least a month, to allow for the nitrogen cycle to start/finish, well the LFS that told me that was way off base. The bottom line is this, ammonia can and will, at best, cause harm to you fish, at worst, it will kill them. So you definitely want to remove the ammonia via water changes to protect your fish. The nitrogen cycle will still occur it will just take longer if doing a fish-in cycle. While, scientifically speaking, products like zeolite should help to remove some ammonia, and other ammonia naturalizing agents should help to transform ammonia to ammonium (still harmful to fish), the most effective and safe way to remove ammonia is via a water change. If you have fish in your tank, definitely do water changes (will probably require minimum daily if tank is not cycled) to remove ammonia and help protect your fish.
 
Yes, agree with Andy, OM47 and the others. There's no dispute that zeolite chemically removes ammonia and ammonium from the water. The problem, especially for our "New to the Hobby" forum, comes in zeolite not being useful on a regular basis for beginners either during cycling or after they have fish. We most often run across it playing an opposite role of being pushed to beginners before they have a correct feel for running either a fishless cycle or for running a tank of fish.

As stated, the problem with zeolite during fishless cycling is that its -too- effective at removing ammonia and will remove the food (ammonia) that drives the fishless cycling process, leaving you in the same ineffective state as you would be if you tried to fishless cycle with less that 2ppm ammonia levels, just not enough for proper colony buildup. This problem is true in fish-in cycling also, as zeolite would clean out the trace amounts of ammonia needed for the slow build-up of biofilter colonies during the periods between water changes. Finally, when running normally with fish, the zeolite not only removes the ammonia down to what is effectively a zero stocking load, thus starving off the bacterial colonies, but as stated, it then adds insult to injury by suddenly reaching capacity and ceasing all ammonia removal. In a heavily stocked tank this could easily result in fish deaths before you realized what was going on.

So, for beginners, this relegates zeolite to the supply shelf, like carbon but really less useful than it, to supposedly be brought down in an emergency. What this beginners section is all about is trying to help beginners to the hobby not have to get in these situations in the first place. For completeness I'll mention that the one area of legitimate usage is with very experienced planted tank enthusiasts: In these cases the hobbyists has usually sunk a small fortune into CO2 equipment, high-tech substrates and lights and fertilization and very large numbers of expensive plants, yet a relatively small stocking load of fish. An even further reduced load of fish can be introduced from the beginning, being offset by the plants, the small ammonia from this stock going to both the plants and, it is hoped, a small bacterial colony startup. Ammonia removers like zeolite are sometimes used in these cases to clean out the ammonia that would trigger algae. But these setups are completely different from the typical beginner setup in that the experienced planted tank operator has confidence that the heavy load of plants will continue to live and perform ammonia removal, even if the zeolite becomes saturated. In beginner tanks, plant death, with its reversal from ammonia absorber to ammonia contributor is even more common than toxin debilitated and dying fish!

While its great for beginners to begin to gain an understanding of how ammonia-removing resins might be used in experienced situations, its even more important for beginners to have a healty respect for the trouble these things are more likely to get them in. Zeolite is yet another shelf item that's all too tempting for LFSs to try and sell just for the sake of selling something, adding to the confusions of meds, carbons and salts they already push off on inexperienced beginners.

~~waterdrop~~
 
WD has given an answer that covers both sides of the Zeolite question. I notice that you have also posed this same question on the UKs premier planted tank forum, which suggests that this is a planted tank, where the general concensus will be to use it. Here is a write up I did on starting up planted tanks:

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/299827-why-we-should-not-fishless-cycle-planted-tanks/

Dave.
 
I have seen that post before Dave, and it is well worth reading and understanding. Many of the principles of your personal approach to using plants instead of bacteria are at the heart of the NPT approach endorsed by people like Diana Walstad. I have a few of those running myself but have a hard time recommending a 'plants instead of bacteria' approach to someone who is not already confident growing aquatic plants. Many new to the hobby can't even tell an aquatic plant from a house plant being offered by the LFS. It is why the LFS gets away with selling things like "lucky bamboo" and similar emergent bog plants as aquatic plants.
 

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