Ich-y questions

[pondholler]

Our 300-gallon planted tank has been established for a couple of months. Then a few fish began disappearing. Two days ago. I spotted one with tell-tale white spots and yesterday treated the tank with API Super-Ick Cure and raised the tank temp to 85. Three weak/dead fish this morning but no spots on them. Spots on a couple of swimming fish. My questions:
1. Can fish have Ich without spots or could we have something else going on as well? (Not seeing other symptoms except weakness before they die).
2. Our water temperature fluctuates between 78-82 depending on how long the lights are on. Could this be affecting the fish?
3. We haven't had any new fish in a couple of months. Where did the Ich come from?
4. Any tips on treating the Ich other than what's on the bottle? (Treat twice, raise temp, water change).
Water test yesterday morning showed Ammonia at .25PPM and Nitrite at 0PPM.

Thanks for your help.

 

[GaryE]

Ich needs a host and spreads fast. Velvet does not, and it causes irregularly shaped white spots when it's advanced. It can lurk in a tank long term without an outbreak, and only takes off when conditions are off. Overfeeding gets it very excited as it seems to like to breed in decaying plant matter and food. Once it moves onto fish, it goes into the gills, unseen, before spreading to the body.

It needs softwater though, and it feeds on light, as a sort of half animal half plant.

Check for images of freshwater oodinium, or velvet. See what you think.

Stick with the current treatment and don't add anything to it. Because it is often mistaken for Ich by new hobbyists, many Ich meds contain formalin, which targets velvet as well. if you think it's velvet, lights off to deprive it of photosynthesis.

 

[Archerfish]

The ammonia reading indicates a major problem with your water quality. The illness of your fish is probably a byproduct. Healthy fish can develop all sorts of illnesses when exposed to prolonged poor water conditions. How many fish do you have in there? Regarding your water temp, it is not a problem unless you have cold or cooler water fishes. Normally, healthy fish would not be affected by subtle fluctuations in temperature. I would get your arms around that water quality issue first.

 

[Byron]

1. Can fish have Ich without spots or could we have something else going on as well? (Not seeing other symptoms except weakness before they die).

Yes, fish can have ich without any white spots, and this can go on for months. Ich first attacks a fish in the gills where we cannot see it. A clue is flashing, if fish begin flashing it is a sign of one of several things but I always suspect ich and so far in 20+ years I have not been wrong. I know ammonia and nitrite is zero , nitrates are in the 1-5 ppm range, and water changes are regular; these things can cause flashing, so it rules them out. It can also be other disease, like gill flukes, but this is more easily seen as red gills and open operculum. Increased respiration is another symptom of ich (and several other things again).

3. We haven't had any new fish in a couple of months. Where did the Ich come from?

Not everyone will agree, but enough biologists have said that ich can live in an aquarium for months with no real outbreak. All it takes is for one parasite to manage to live through whatever treatment. It is only when fish are stressed that it becomes visible, but sometimes this is only flashing as mentioned above. I had several acquisitions of fish that in the QT showed signs of ich--flashing or a spot or two. I left them alone to avoid stress, and they overcame it.

4. Any tips on treating the Ich other than what's on the bottle? (Treat twice, raise temp, water change).

The safest ich treatment is raising the water temperature to 86F/30C for two weeks. This comes from Neale Monks, who also said salt could be used with this in very stubborn cases, but not normally. With very few exceptions, all the tropical fish we keep can withstand this better than ay medication. Medications do negatively impact all fish, adding further stress which of course increases the opportunity for ich. Not everyone agrees with this, but I follow the advice of people like Neale who know what they are talking about.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

First, .26 ppm of ammonia is almost never an issue. How toxic any total ammonia reading might be depends on how much of the toal is in the form of ammonia (NH4) as opposde to ammonium (NH4). Ammonium is way way less toxic.

However, for .25 ppm to be harmful you pH would have to be at least 8.5 with the water at 85F. I consider 0.05ppm of NH3 to be a red line. Below it pretty much everything is safe in a tank. Research shows this number needs to be higher for many fish, but I like to keep things safe for all. I got that 0/05 number from the Section on nitrogen toxicities to fish from the Merck Veterinary Manual

The amount of toxic NH3 present can be calculated using the TAN, pH, and water temperature. When NH3 levels exceed 0.05 mg/L, damage to gills becomes apparent; levels of 2 mg/L are lethal for many fish. Fish exposed to ammonia may be lethargic and have poor appetites. Acute toxicity may be suggested by neurologic signs such as spinning, disorientation, and convulsions.

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/exot...atic-systems?query=ammonia and tropical fish'
scroll down to the section on Nitrogenous Compounds.

Here is the Merck guide to Parasitic diseases in Fish https://www.merckvetmanual.com/exot...diseases-of-fish?query=velvet disease in fish
Scroill down to Piscinoodinium (freshwater). There are different strains in FW and SW.

As far as I know velvet appears a fine golden dust when it is external. On gills we see nothing. The velvet on the fish can often be hard to spot. Try using a flashlight which may help illuminate the velvet if present. Ich is a ciliate while oodinium is a dinoflagelate. So they are not the same and that means some meds may work on both but not all.