Ich-like Spot On M. Herbertaxelrodi...

[trojannemo]

well i bagged myself a nice M. herbertaxelrodi on Monday. at the store he looked pretty, no visible signs of any illness.
within 10 minutes of being introduced into the tank, i noticed what looked like a big ich spot on his caudal fin. mind you, this wasn't there in the store, but i'm not sure if it showed up in transit or after being introduced to my tank.
two hours or so after that, my old platy got an ich-like spot on her side and so, having treated ICH before, i went into full attack mode.
raised the temperature, salted the hell out of the tank (no real plants yet, so whew) and two days later, i.e. wednesday, the platy had lost the ich spot and in that time period (from monday afternoon to wednesday) nobody else showed signs of ich or any other disease....except the M. herbertaxelrodi, who still had the white spot on his caudal fin.

now it's friday night, 4 days after i began the heat + salt treatment and in all this time, he hasn't had any other ich spots, neither has any other fish (except for the ONE spot on my platy as i said before) and nobody has died or developed any visible diseases...yet the M. herbertaxelrodi STILL has that spot there.

i will keep treating as if it were ich, but i'm beginning to doubt that it is. like i said, i've succesfully fought off ICH about 5-6 times and i dont think this is ICH!

could it be he got bitten and that "white" spot is a scale missing from his fin or something? problem is he NEVER stops swimming enough for me to point it out as definetively ich or as something else...and i can't manage to get a picture of him either

any other ideas as to what could that white ich-like spot be, if it isn't ich?
thanks!


PS. managed a picture of the guy. you can't even see the spot in it but so you get an idea of what he looks like. can you guys confirm my ID...is he really a M. herbertaxelrodi? he is between 1.5-2" in size right now btw

 

[Syphoniera]

Hi, and sorry about your troubles with your absolutely stunning fish.
I was just wondering, does the spot look oddly lumpy, and almost sort of tiny-eggy-patchy, rather than what you'd expect of ich?
If it's spread at all, is it kind of a narrow oval shape rather than a random blob?
I have no info to offer, except that I'd bought some Harlequins a few weeks ago and one had an initially tiny white speck on the upper portion of its caudal fin that was really resistant and spread in that utterly weird manner just described, becoming quite (relatively) large and taking a chunk of fin with it when it abruptly disappeared during a triple-med treatment for this and another, group ailment, leaving a few specks hither and yon on that fin for a couple of days before they went as well.
None of the other fish seem to have had this particular problem.
If what I think is a tiny white speck on the upper portion of the caudal in your pic, is the actual spot, it's even in approx. the same area, unless that's just coloration or a coffee spill, lol, or whatever, as you do say it's not visible here...
Prob. isn't the same thing, of course, and your fish is obviously in great shape and colour, which my Harley's weren't at first, and so also less likely to develop problems to the same extent even if it is something similar, but as it does sound potentially similar I thought I'd check.
Seem to be new diseases/parasites coming in all the time...

 

[drobbyb]

Hi there. If the spot is on his fins, and not really ich like but more transparent then that is a sign that your water quality isn't good enough for rainbows. They need 50% water changes weekly. Clean water will help it to go away on it's own. The next thing you might notice is a growth like thing on his lip. If you see that then it's definately a water quality issue.

Yes that is a M. herbertaxelrodi.

 

[trojannemo]

Hi there. If the spot is on his fins, and not really ich like but more transparent then that is a sign that your water quality isn't good enough for rainbows. They need 50% water changes weekly. Clean water will help it to go away on it's own. The next thing you might notice is a growth like thing on his lip. If you see that then it's definately a water quality issue.

Yes that is a M. herbertaxelrodi.

how so? my tank has been established for over 8 months...ammonia and nitrite are at 0ppm, pH is at 7.5, temperature at 76F (controlled by two independent heaters), as well as having 90G worth of filtration in a 33G tank...so, how is my water quality not good for rainbows?

not to mention i highly doubt it happened as a result of interacting with my tank's water as the spot showed up within minutes of having put him in the tank. anyways, it's been now what, nearly 2 weeks now and the spot is still there, and it hasn't spread anywhere to his body, he hasn't had any other spots or growths and obviously he hasn't died. none of my rainbows have died. quite the contrary, they seem to be thriving

i'm not trying to be mean or anything. i just really dont understand in what way my water would be "bad" for the rainbows with all i mentioned above? explain please?

 

[drobbyb]

Hi there. If the spot is on his fins, and not really ich like but more transparent then that is a sign that your water quality isn't good enough for rainbows. They need 50% water changes weekly. Clean water will help it to go away on it's own. The next thing you might notice is a growth like thing on his lip. If you see that then it's definately a water quality issue.

Yes that is a M. herbertaxelrodi.

how so? my tank has been established for over 8 months...ammonia and nitrite are at 0ppm, pH is at 7.5, temperature at 76F (controlled by two independent heaters), as well as having 90G worth of filtration in a 33G tank...so, how is my water quality not good for rainbows?

not to mention i highly doubt it happened as a result of interacting with my tank's water as the spot showed up within minutes of having put him in the tank. anyways, it's been now what, nearly 2 weeks now and the spot is still there, and it hasn't spread anywhere to his body, he hasn't had any other spots or growths and obviously he hasn't died. none of my rainbows have died. quite the contrary, they seem to be thriving

i'm not trying to be mean or anything. i just really dont understand in what way my water would be "bad" for the rainbows with all i mentioned above? explain please?

If it showed up within minutes then it came with him. LFS usually have very bad water quality. I breed rainbows and from what you have described my initial thought is accurate. It may not be so in this case but I have seen it a thousand times. Rainbows need CLEAN water just like Discus with a different pH. 50% weekly water changes are REQUIRED. Rainbows do not tolerate DOS (dissolved organic solids) and there is no test for this outside a lab. If you do not do your water changes then they will just get sick and die.

I'm not trying to tear you down on your water quality. I'm just trying to help you get to the bottom of this.

 

[Syphoniera]

Seeing as I have a reputation to maintain regarding silly suggestions - any chance it could be some unusual parasite similar to, or some variant of, a fish louse?
There are so many new nasties coming in...
And is it possible, since it is somewhat transparent, that it was previously present, but only showed in a different light and angle?

This, if you haven't already seen this or anything similar - and for all I know you belong to this forum - is probably of no help or comfort, but just in case:

http/bowheads.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-1867.html



'... Yah, you can see it through the tail, but an ich spot has a lot of substance to it. The spot on his affinis looks fuzzy -- transparent sorta. ...'

'... rainbowfan02-06-2007, 10:30 PM
A few of my Wonga Creek juvies had that too. It didn't amount to anything, so i wouldn't worry too much. At least that was my experience. It looked exactly the same. It looks as if there is a whitish discoloration wihin the fin. I just kept my eye out for any unusual fish behavior or spreading. But all was fine.
Hope yours go well too.

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TheXman02-07-2007, 03:01 AM
Thanks everyone,
No change in the last 24 hours, which I'm taking as a good sign. If it were a parasite or serious infection I'm guessing it would have spread or gotten bigger. No unusual behavior from him, so it looks like he's fine, but I'm still keeping an eye on him. ...'


'... So, just when the spot on the tail is clearing up, I notice a couple of white spots on this same fish's dorsal fin. They look similar to the first white spot. I tried getting a picture, but couldn't get one where the spots showed up. Any ideas what this might be or what I should do? I also noticed that my false siamese algae eater has what looks to be a whitish film or discoloration on a good portion of it's body. I don't have a good feeling about this. ...'

'... Jetta749506-06-2007, 01:28 AM
Hey Xman, I was just wondering whatever happened with this situation and what did you end up doing for a remedy.

Thanks

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TheXman06-06-2007, 05:39 AM
I tried some Melafix and Pimafix. After following the instructions on the bottle and finishing the course of treatment, the spots were still there, but they weren't getting any bigger. He was still eating and swimming normally, so I didn't do anything after that. Two weeks later the spots were gone and he's none the worse for the wear, happy and healthy ever since. I think the white spots were just small injuries, from what, I don't know. I also have no idea whether the Melafix or Pimafix did anything or not, my gut feeling is that the wounds healed basically on their own ...'

?


Of course, you want to know what it is, specifically.
Unnerving not knowing, and I do hope something more constructive is offered soon.

 

[trojannemo]

thanks for that. i am indeed a member of those forums, but i hadn't seen that post! very helpful read. sounds much like mine. i'll keep an eye out. i had columnaris once so i know what it'll look like when it spreads, if it is that.

for now i'm not worried about it. like you said, i just want to know for the sake of knowing. all the rainbows are alive, and getting wonderful colors as they keep getting more accustomed to their new (and renovated) home. let's hope it's nothing bad

 

[drobbyb]

How's he doing? He is a beautiful specimen and would hate for him to have gone downhill.

 

[Colin_T]

Rainbowfish sometimes have a bubble under the skin in their fins, usually tail. It is normally found along one of the fin rays. It causes a slightly raised lump that is the same colour as the tail. Under certain lighting it can appear white. Without a pic showing the problem it will be hard to id but if it is this, then it is nothing to worry about.
They can also develop calcium lumps in their fins. These appear as small white lumps and are also found along the fin rays. They aren’t very common.

Whitespot parasites attach themselves to the fish for a few days before they fall off and multiply in the gravel. If the fish has whitespot then the spot/s should have fallen off within a couple of days. Then if the tank isn’t treated with an appropriate medication, (something containing copper or malachite green, etc) then the parasites will re-infect the fish and cover them in white spots.
Raising the temperature only speeds up the parasite’s lifecycle and if there is no medication in the water the fish will be re-infected sooner.

The white dot that sometimes appears on the lip/ mouth of rainbowfish is bruising caused by the fish swimming into something hard, usually the side of the tank. It is most noticeable in wild caught fish, or fish that come from huge tanks/ ponds and put into small tanks. Poor water quality, (high nitrates and low PH) will cause rainbowfish to become nervous and panic, dashing around the tank. Then they will often injure themselves and develop the bruised lip.

Rainbowfish are susceptible to bacterial and protozoan infections. These problems can be prevented by doing regular partial water changes and keeping the gravel and filter clean. The less gunk in the gravel and filter, the fewer problems you will have.
Health issues are also linked to diet. Rainbows should have lots of plant matter in their diet. They should not be fed too much, if any frozen bloodworms. This food has been known to cause internal problems to rainbowfish.

The fish in the picture does not look like a true M. herbertaxelrodi. These fish should have a pale yellow body colour. The pic looks more like M. trifasciata or a hybrid.

The following link has lots of pics of rainbows.
http/members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Melano.htm

 

[trojannemo]

How's he doing? He is a beautiful specimen and would hate for him to have gone downhill.

he is doing great. after i changed the gravel and added some live plants all of the rainbows have gotten happier and better coloration. after it was determined that the white spot was definetively not ich, i just lowered the temperature to 76F (and now with two heaters so the entire tank is at one steady temp.) and the fish seems to appreciate that lower temperature. the spot is almost gone. in all this time, it hasn't moved, nor changed size nor shape. so i still dont know what it is, but he doesnt seem to mind and it looks like its going away on its own. i'm keeping the water clean and changing the filter cartridges and cotton often in the meantime

The fish in the picture does not look like a true M. herbertaxelrodi. These fish should have a pale yellow body colour. The pic looks more like M. trifasciata or a hybrid.

The following link has lots of pics of rainbows.
[URL="http/members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Melano.htm"]http/members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Melano.htm[/URL]

while i know very little of rainbows at this point, it was that website that made me decide it was a herbertaxelrodi. my guy has the same body lines as the pictures on the site, and on the fins he's got the deep orange with the dark black outline as seen on the website's pictures.

The dorsal, anal, and caudal fins can be red or yellow.

the body shape is the same, the lateral line is the same, and the coloration agrees with the website description. not to mention that the store i bought it from is very reputable with a good selection of rainbows, all of which have been correct so far in their IDs...

where do you see a semblance to a trifasciata?

 

[Colin_T]

M. herbertaxelrodi and the M. trifasciatas from Queensland are very closely related and look very similar. In fact M. trifasciata from the Coen River should never be kept with M. herbertaxelrodi because they look almost identical in colour/ markings, and grow to the same size. However, most of the Queensland trifasciatas generally have a more greenish body and the herbs should be yellowish. Most rainbowfish, especially trifasciatas get deep bodied (tall or high in the body) and they all have a similar shape. Most rainbowfish have a black edge to their fins and a black line running along the middle of their body.

 

[trojannemo]

well i looked at the rainbow site again at the trifasciatas and one of them looks similar, but not enough coloration to be like mine.
what's the sure-fire way to identify him then? i'm not a stickler for names or brands. if he's trifasciata or herbertaxelrodi, i dont care! he's beautiful, healthy and very lively! he's staying no matter what he is. but i do want to know which one for sure.

my water has cleared up completely now, i'll try again today to get better pictures of all the rainbows...i'll post back later when/if i get them. in the meantime, is there indeed a way to be sure of his id?

 

[drobbyb]

The fish in the picture does not look like a true M. herbertaxelrodi. These fish should have a pale yellow body colour. The pic looks more like M. trifasciata or a hybrid.

I disagree. The pics on Mr. Tappin's website are of wild fish. His fish looks exactly like the ones I have seen elsewhere. Both the tri's and the herbertaxelrodi do look similar.

 

[Colin_T]

The fish in the picture does not look like a true M. herbertaxelrodi. These fish should have a pale yellow body colour. The pic looks more like M. trifasciata or a hybrid.

I disagree. The pics on Mr. Tappin's website are of wild fish. His fish looks exactly like the ones I have seen elsewhere. Both the tri's and the herbertaxelrodi do look similar.

We haven't had any wild caught M. Herbertaxelrodi in Australia for over 20 years and mine always turned out yellow like the ones on the website.
It's highly probable they have been hybridised. It wouldn't take much for someone to accidently have a tri and a herb in the same tank and just breed from them. Then all the young from that point on would be hybrids.

what's the sure-fire way to identify him then?

The only real way to know whether it is a herb or a tri is to find out where it came from. If it is from New Guinea it's a herb, from Australia would be a tri. Unfortunately I doubt anyone would know.
It's a nice fish so I wouldn't worry too much about what species it is, as long as you don't want to breed it.

 

[drobbyb]

It is entirely possible that it is a hybrid, and I'm not the person to make that call. He could post that pic on Bowheads and find out for sure.