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I Most Definitely Messed Up

Okay, that is what I thought. But I figured I'd ask. The fact that they said about a pound per gallon and only sell in pound bags was the reason I thought it wasn't worth it.
Never hurts to ask, that's how we learn ;)
 
A lot of Qs.

I have research. I can give you a quote from one study however and the link. If you need more I have a few. I cycled a tank that started at pH 4.2. I then took it up to 6.0 where it basically has remained as the target pH since. It was also one of my earliest attmepts at a bio-farm approach to cycling.

Physiological mechanisms.​

Both experimental observations (19, 31, 58) and the hypothetical mechanism of the reaction (61) show that ammonia (not ammonium) is the substrate for the first step of ammonia oxidation catalyzed by ammonia monooxygenase. How is ammonia provided to AMO under such acidic conditions? It is not clear whether the active site of the membrane-bound AMO faces the periplasmic space or the cytoplasm. Ammonia is transported into the cytoplasm by diffusion (34). Despite poor pH regulation properties reported for N. europaea, the internal pH under acidic conditions is still higher that that of the periplasm (19). Consequently, an active site facing the cytoplasm would be advantageous. At pH 4, however, ammonia is virtually absent, and its protonated form, ammonium, would require specific ammonium transporters to enter the cell. Such transporters have been found in the genome of N. europaea (11). Their expression would be indispensable if cells had to cope with acidic conditions. De novo synthesis of such transporters, however, might take considerable time and an additional expense of energy for slow-growing cells of AOB. This is in line with the observation made when cells were shifted from neutral pH to around pH 4 conditions in nitrifying reactors containing biofilms or nitrifying flocs: a few weeks were necessary for nitrification rates to recover to original levels, and lower biomass yields were obtained (60). The dilatoriness of this adaptation also explains why pure cultures of AOB typically do not grow instantly in an acidic medium. A slow shift to acidic conditions is a seemingly more successful strategy.
Italics added by me
from https://journals.asm.org/doi/full/10.1128/AEM.00241-06

As for salt for nitrite and plants, Tte amount of salt one will have to use combined with the short amount of time it needs to be in the water means almost nothing in a tank should be bothered by the salt. Most will be bothered by persistent nitrite in the water.

Here are some numbers to illustrate the effect that pH has one ammonia Temperature also has an effect but much less so than p .(Tthere is more NH3 the higher the temp.) Each of the tanks below has had 2 ppm of Total Ammonia TA (NH3 + NH4) added to it and they are all at 80F. Using the known formula for calculating how much of the TA if in each form:

Tank A has a pH of 8.0. TA in this tank breaks down as: NH3 = 0.1142 ppm, NH4 = 1.8858 ppm.
Tank B has a pH of 7.0. TA in this tank breaks down as: NH3 = 0.0120 ppm, NH4 = 1.8429 ppm.
Tank C has a pH of 6.0. TA in this tank breaks down as: NH3 = 0.0012 ppm, NH4 = 1.9988 ppm.
Tank D has a pH of 5.0. TA in this tank breaks down as: NH3 = 0.0001 ppm, NH4 = 1.9999 ppm.
Tank E has a pH of 4.0. TA in this tank breaks down as: NH3 = 0.0000 ppm, NH4 = 2.0000 ppm.
 
A lot of Qs.

I have research. I can give you a quote from one study however and the link. If you need more I have a few. I cycled a tank that started at pH 4.2. I then took it up to 6.0 where it basically has remained as the target pH since. It was also one of my earliest attmepts at a bio-farm approach to cycling.


Italics added by me
from https://journals.asm.org/doi/full/10.1128/AEM.00241-06

As for salt for nitrite and plants, Tte amount of salt one will have to use combined with the short amount of time it needs to be in the water means almost nothing in a tank should be bothered by the salt. Most will be bothered by persistent nitrite in the water.

Here are some numbers to illustrate the effect that pH has one ammonia Temperature also has an effect but much less so than p .(Tthere is more NH3 the higher the temp.) Each of the tanks below has had 2 ppm of Total Ammonia TA (NH3 + NH4) added to it and they are all at 80F. Using the known formula for calculating how much of the TA if in each form:

Tank A has a pH of 8.0. TA in this tank breaks down as: NH3 = 0.1142 ppm, NH4 = 1.8858 ppm.
Tank B has a pH of 7.0. TA in this tank breaks down as: NH3 = 0.0120 ppm, NH4 = 1.8429 ppm.
Tank C has a pH of 6.0. TA in this tank breaks down as: NH3 = 0.0012 ppm, NH4 = 1.9988 ppm.
Tank D has a pH of 5.0. TA in this tank breaks down as: NH3 = 0.0001 ppm, NH4 = 1.9999 ppm.
Tank E has a pH of 4.0. TA in this tank breaks down as: NH3 = 0.0000 ppm, NH4 = 2.0000 ppm.
Okay, any chance this can be explained in stupid terms?

Thank you for letting me know that the salt won't hurt the plants. Am I still paranoid? Yea, will I attempt it, possibly.
 
I'VE GOT THE API FRESHWATER TESTKIT
HERE ARE MY VALUES:
Ammonia: 0.0-.25ppm
Nitrates: 0ppm
Nitrites: 1.0-2.0ppm maybe (I have hard time reading the different purple shades)
pH: 7.4
Photos:
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OK- as for the ammonia, I have to assume a temp. for your tank to tell you how much is in each form. So I will assume 78F and TA at .25ppm.

The toxic ammonia level (NH3) is 0.0037. The red line I use for NH3 is 0.05 ppm. So the TA in your tank is not an issue. Therefore, just use salt for the nitrite. Follow the directions in the rescue article part 2. Do not change water at this time. There is no reason if you use the salt. Keep testing the levels at least daily. Ammonia should not go up and should read 0 soon if it is not already there.

Test for nitrite every day. If it goes up you will need to add a bit more salt. If it drops you need to so nothing. What direction the nitrite goes will let you know how close to cycled your tank is for the fish and plants now in it. When you get 0/0 for ammonia/nitrite, you can do a big water change for nitrate and to remove the salt and then add more fish. You want to manage the bio-load in the tank. You can do this by considering the mass of the fish in the tank and then adding no more than 25% of that in new fish. You may get a small spike in ammonia and/or nitrite for a short time. Do not worry they will be gone in well under a day. When the tank again tests 0/0, you can add more fish.

The way to estimate the bio-load, aka the mass of the fish, is to estimate what they might weigh if they were all on a scale together. So the new fish should only weigh about 1/4 - 1/3 of that. You did not post what fish are in the tank, so I cannot suggest examples of what you might add.

As for what the paper was showing was what happens to the cycle as the pH gets lower. A lot of places tell you it stalls, it does not. The bacteria have to switch to using the ammonium (NH4) and making the changeover takes some time. So it looks like the cycle stalled. It hasn't, it has just slowed. However, when the TA in a tank is mostly in the form of ammonium, it is way less harmful, especially when this is only for the short term. That paper shows this is what happens.

Most of us do not have tanks that are as low as pH 6.0 or even lower. However, the cycle itself is acidic. Over time it will cause the pH in a tank to drop. Especially if the tank is not getting regular water changes. However, this is all changes when there are live plants involved. And the more of these one has, and the more of them that are fast growing, the more of the ammonia in a tank will be handled by the plants. But they prefer to use ammonium. And they can use this way faster than the bacteria can use the ammonia. Start with enough of the right plants and you can be adding fish in about 2 weeks. I like to let new plants settle in before I start adding either ammonia or fish to a tank.

The thing about the plants is when they use ammonium, they do not create nitrate. Plants prefer ammonium but when they cannot get that, they can use nitrate, but less efficiently as they have to reverse the cycle and turn it back into ammonium. This means they have to use some of the energy gained to do that. This means the nitrate is not as good a food. However, we cannot add ammonia to a stocked tank in any real concentration as a plant fert. Ths waould be harmful to the fish and inverts. Instead,they will contain nitrate. When we run high tech planted tanks with added CO2, we often add additional nitrate to a tank.
 
OK- as for the ammonia, I have to assume a temp. for your tank to tell you how much is in each form. So I will assume 78F and TA at .25ppm.

The toxic ammonia level (NH3) is 0.0037. The red line I use for NH3 is 0.05 ppm. So the TA in your tank is not an issue. Therefore, just use salt for the nitrite. Follow the directions in the rescue article part 2. Do not change water at this time. There is no reason if you use the salt. Keep testing the levels at least daily. Ammonia should not go up and should read 0 soon if it is not already there.

Test for nitrite every day. If it goes up you will need to add a bit more salt. If it drops you need to so nothing. What direction the nitrite goes will let you know how close to cycled your tank is for the fish and plants now in it. When you get 0/0 for ammonia/nitrite, you can do a big water change for nitrate and to remove the salt and then add more fish. You want to manage the bio-load in the tank. You can do this by considering the mass of the fish in the tank and then adding no more than 25% of that in new fish. You may get a small spike in ammonia and/or nitrite for a short time. Do not worry they will be gone in well under a day. When the tank again tests 0/0, you can add more fish.

The way to estimate the bio-load, aka the mass of the fish, is to estimate what they might weigh if they were all on a scale together. So the new fish should only weigh about 1/4 - 1/3 of that. You did not post what fish are in the tank, so I cannot suggest examples of what you might add.

As for what the paper was showing was what happens to the cycle as the pH gets lower. A lot of places tell you it stalls, it does not. The bacteria have to switch to using the ammonium (NH4) and making the changeover takes some time. So it looks like the cycle stalled. It hasn't, it has just slowed. However, when the TA in a tank is mostly in the form of ammonium, it is way less harmful, especially when this is only for the short term. That paper shows this is what happens.

Most of us do not have tanks that are as low as pH 6.0 or even lower. However, the cycle itself is acidic. Over time it will cause the pH in a tank to drop. Especially if the tank is not getting regular water changes. However, this is all changes when there are live plants involved. And the more of these one has, and the more of them that are fast growing, the more of the ammonia in a tank will be handled by the plants. But they prefer to use ammonium. And they can use this way faster than the bacteria can use the ammonia. Start with enough of the right plants and you can be adding fish in about 2 weeks. I like to let new plants settle in before I start adding either ammonia or fish to a tank.

The thing about the plants is when they use ammonium, they do not create nitrate. Plants prefer ammonium but when they cannot get that, they can use nitrate, but less efficiently as they have to reverse the cycle and turn it back into ammonium. This means they have to use some of the energy gained to do that. This means the nitrate is not as good a food. However, we cannot add ammonia to a stocked tank in any real concentration as a plant fert. Ths waould be harmful to the fish and inverts. Instead,they will contain nitrate. When we run high tech planted tanks with added CO2, we often add additional nitrate to a tank.
Temperature is set to 78 degrees with a preset. Sorry for forgetting that.

So right now I just have to be concerned about the nitrites that are about 1.0-2.0ppm and I help the fish by adding salt to prevent their blood from turning brown correct?

Is 0.0ppm Nitrate okay or should there be a reading?

That sounds like a really interesting article. I'm just not the best with technical terms.
 
That article was more for Ichthys who asked if I had research about the bacteria and using NH# v.s. NH4. The "cycle" does not stop at acid pH levels.

While NH3 is the really toxic form of ammonia as compared to ammonium which is actually an ion as it has a negative charge, this does not mean there is 0 danger from elevated levels of NH4. And this matters in environments where the water is very acid and there are fish thriving in it.

The best way I can explain this is to related the story of my Altum angels and needing to cycle a tank which started at 4.2 pH and was targetted to be at 6.o eventually. I had a grand plan. I knew that TA at pH 4.2 was pretty safe over the shorter term. I also knew that it took time for the bactreria to reset to process NH4. So here was my plan. I brought the fish into a tank set at 4.2 pH but which was not cycled. Before the fish even arrived I put in motion the second part of my plan. I set up a small bio farm tank at pH 7.0 which was my tap. I added some Dr. Tim's One and Only to start a fishless cycle dosing ammonium chloride. Once the tank was cycled, I began a gradual process of dropping the pH by a .2 while continuing to add ammonia. When the tank was again cycled at 6.8, I again dropped the pH. The goal was to end up with the filters in the farm tank to be cycled for water at 6.0 pH.

The plan was to raise the Altum tank pH over time to 6.0 and and have the bio-farm cycling at 6 .0. The time frame for this was about 6 months. it all made perfect sense to me except for one thing on which I did not count. The Altum tank cycled itself on the way up to 6.0. I could not test any ammonia in it as I approached the time when I would move the cycled filters from the biofarm tank to the tank with the fish.

The altum tank held no plants. So there was only one way that the TA could test at 0 and that was the tank was cycled on its own without my doing anything and without any harm coming to the fish. I cannot explain why there was no issue from nitrite. Perhaps it was due to the bacteria that began colonizing favored Nitrospira, the bacteria originally though only to process nitrite. It turned out they can process ammonia straight to nitrate as well as processing nitrite to nitrate. This was revealed in a paper published in 2015. Don't worry about the technical terms, look at what they actually mean. I have underlined the key sentence.

van Kessel, M. A., Speth, D. R., Albertsen, M., Nielsen, P. H., Op den Camp, H. J., Kartal, B., Jetten, M. S., & Lücker, S. (2015). Complete nitrification by a single microorganism. Nature, 528(7583), 555–559. https://doi.org/10.1038/nature16459

Summary​

Nitrification is a two-step process where ammonia is considered to first be oxidized to nitrite by ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) and/or archaea (AOA), and subsequently to nitrate by nitrite-oxidizing bacteria (NOB). Described by Winogradsky already in 18901, this division of labour between the two functional groups is a generally accepted characteristic of the biogeochemical nitrogen cycle2. Complete oxidation of ammonia to nitrate in one organism (complete ammonia oxidation; comammox) is energetically feasible and it was postulated that this process could occur under conditions selecting for species with lower growth-rates but higher growth-yields than canonical ammonia-oxidizing microorganisms3. Still, organisms catalysing this process have not yet been discovered. Here, we report the enrichment and initial characterization of two Nitrospira species that encode all enzymes necessary for ammonia oxidation via nitrite to nitrate in their genomes, and indeed completely oxidize ammonium to nitrate to conserve energy. Their ammonia monooxygenase (AMO) enzymes are phylogenetically distinct from currently identified AMOs, rendering recent acquisition by horizontal gene transfer from known ammonia-oxidizing microorganisms unlikely. We also found highly similar amoA sequences (encoding the AMO subunit A) in public sequence databases, which were apparently misclassified as methane monooxygenases. This recognition of a novel amoA sequence group will lead to an improved understanding on the environmental abundance and distribution of ammonia-oxidizing microorganisms. Furthermore, the discovery of the long-sought-after comammox process will change our perception of the nitrogen cycle
from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4878690/

This is the beauty of science. It expects to learn new things over time that change what was thought to be known. A perfect example of this re cycling was that there are Archaea, (another microorganism) which can process ammonia to nitrite. So what science knew about the nitrogen cycle and how it work was revised. It was no longer solely the province of bacteria.

Fortunately, for us as fish keepers, it doesn't mater what specific microorganisms may do the job of keeping our tanks safe from ammonia and what it can become. It doesn't matter that a lot of this may be done by live plants in a tank. What matters is that ammonia etc. ceases to be a threat to our fish and inverts. It is important that we know how to act at various stages of the cycle.

What does matter is that we have a basic understanding of what is going on at the microscopic level in our tanks so that we can know things are safe and healthy. This understanding makes it a whole lot easier to cycle a tank and to know how this process is progressing along the way. So we need to know that ammonia comes first then nitrite and then nitrate. We need to know how much ammonia to add in a fishless cycle- i.e not to exceed 5 ppm as nitrogen which is 6.4 ppm on the total ion scale used by most hobby test kits.

We do not need to be master chemists nor biologists to get a tank cycled, we just need to understand the real basics as opposed to a lot of the urban aquarium myths one can find all over the net. This is also why I wrote the cycling articles. I wanted to eliminate the misinformation. I wanted to create easy to follow step by step instructions which, when followed exactly, will always result in a tank becoming cycled in a reasonable amount of time. It was designed to be fail-safe. By that I mean one could not over dose ammonia which would then create too much nitrite which is usually what actually stalls a cycle. It is knowing the science behind the nitrogen cycle which mades it possible to create this sort of system for cycling.

How many times have you been told any amount of ammonia is harmful and requires water changes? It is not true. What matters is how much of it is NH3. I am telling you do not change water for nitrite, use chloride to block the nitrite from entering the fish and doing the harm. Consider the aquaculture industry or a public aquarium which has huge tanks. Water changes are not a possibility when 100s of thousands of gallons are involved. It was the science which showed these areas how to deal with ammonia and nitrite in other ways. And those ways will also work in a tank. Here is how I learned to use chloride for nitrite, the paper is from 1997.
Nitrite in Fish Ponds Robert M. Durborow1, David M. Crosby2 and Martin W. Brunson3

Consider this, the science tells us that any paper written on nitrite needs to include information on the amount of chloride present. Without this critical piece of information, a paper re nitrite without this information is considered to have no scientific value. This is because of how chloride blocks nitrite.

edited for spelling and typos
 
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And tank has fully cycled it seems.
First: pH at 7.4
Second: Ammonia at 0ppm
Third: Nitrites at 0ppm
Fourth: Nitrates at 0ppm

Does this all seem about right? Am I safe to add more fish on Friday?
 
The only way to be sure you are cycled is to do a dose of 2 ppm ammonia and see if nitrite and ammonia are 0 after 24 hours.. If they read 0 after 24 hours, then do as 100% water change to remove nitrates and then stock your tank.
Do the above ONLY IF you have 0 fish in the tank.
 
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The only way to be sure you are cycled is to do a dose of 2 ppm ammonia and see if nitrite and ammonia are 0 after 24 hours.. If they read 0 after 24 hours, then do as 100% water change to remove nitrates and then stock your tank.
"Does this all seem about right? Am I safe to add more fish on Friday?"

Sounds like there's already fish in the tank (?)

Lost track of this thread, though...
 
"Does this all seem about right? Am I safe to add more fish on Friday?"

Sounds like there's already fish in the tank (?)

Lost track of this thread, though...
Yes, there are already fish in the tank. I thought my tank had cycled, turned out it either hadn't or I had a bad spike. Lost a bunch of fish but managed to keep a small group alive with big water changes.
I had tested on Saturday and nitrites were at 1-2ppm as I couldn't tell the difference in shades.
I missed testing on Sunday due to being out of the house all day.
Tested Monday night and everything was at 0ppm.
 
Yes, there are already fish in the tank. I thought my tank had cycled, turned out it either hadn't or I had a bad spike. Lost a bunch of fish but managed to keep a small group alive with big water changes.
I had tested on Saturday and nitrites were at 1-2ppm as I couldn't tell the difference in shades.
I missed testing on Sunday due to being out of the house all day.
Tested Monday night and everything was at 0ppm.
You're in good shape.

You can add more fish, but keep a close eye on those params..I'd even wait a day or two before adding more, to be on the safe side
 
You're in good shape.

You can add more fish, but keep a close eye on those params..I'd even wait a day or two before adding more, to be on the safe side
Awesome! I plan to add more fish on Friday as that's when I'm going to pick up crickets for my bearded dragon. No sense in making two different trips in the opposite direction of where I live.
 

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