I Didn't Know Any Better...

[duplosion]

I'm sorry to add another post about cycling, but I could use some affirmation that I'm doing the right thing -- or criticism if I'm not.
 
On Saturday, I bought a 60 gallon aquarium from a big box pet store.
 
This wasn't an impulse buy, at least on the surface. I'd done some basic research, thought about it for a few weeks, and decided that yes, I'd really enjoy this hobby. A 60g seemed to be the best choice for my space and my capabilities. I bought all the right stuff -- appropriate filters, thermometer, heater, gravel, water conditioner, liquid test set, etc.
 
So I came home and set everything up. I conditioned the water, added the decorative elements, dropped in the appropriate amount of quick start (per the sales guy's instructions), and the next day I went back to the store pick up some fish (4 Mollies, to be exact -- 1 male and 3 females).
 
It wasn't until I had the fish in the tank that I started down the path of research that lead me to reading about cycling. I accept this as a failure on my part, even though I thought I was doing all the right research beforehand.
 
Yesterday, the ammonia levels were at .5, so I changed 25% of the water. That helped a lot. Today, the ammonia levels were at .25, so I changed 16% (adding new conditioner and quick start to each fresh bucket before it was added to the tank). After that, the levels were somewhere between 0 and .25 (but closer to .25 than 0).
 
Is the course that I need to take from here on out? Just changing an appropriate percentage of the water when the ammonia or nitrites get high? Is there something else I should be doing as well?
 
I'm lucky that I work from home, so I can change out the water everyday with no problem if that's the best way to go.
 
Thanks for your help,
 
Kevin
 
 
 
 

 

[the_lock_man]

Hi and welcome.
 
Have a read of the Fish-In Cycle articles at the top of this section of the forum (Parts 1 and 2), they will help you an awful lot.

 

[Gruntle]

I would guess the vast majority of us have fallen for the "fill the tank, turn it on and you're ready for fish" story from a pet store. Follow the_lock_man's advice and read the fish-in cycle articles, and jump back on here as soon as you have any questions. It's not the end of the world, a fish-in cycle can be managed (especially if you're fortunate enough to be home near your tank most of the time).

 

[TwoTankAmin]

the problem is most people do not have a clue how to manage a fish in cycle. Most do not understand what makes ammonia toxic or how much fish can withstand for how long without being done permanent damage. Most will have you changing water way way way too much. the less water you change, the faster the cycling goes.
 
I consider cycling with fish like a dance. One the one hand you want to allow ammonia to rise but not so high nor for enough time that it harms fish. And this varies from fish to fish by species and from tank to tank based on pH and temperature. In one tank 2 ppm is safe for days and in another .5 ppm is not safe for for hours. So to do the dance you have to know all the steps and how and when to do them.
 
In your case either return the fish and cycle w/o them or buy or borrow the needed bacteria and you should be fine. Try to keep going with the all the fish and no added bacteria and you likely will not be fine. Mollies are not a bad cycling fish and you do not have too many. But even if you do everything right it will take you 5 weeks (+/-) to get the tank cycled for 4 mollies, and then you can add one more and wait a week or so for the tank to catch up and then maybe add another similar sized fish or two and wait again. A fish in cycle takes many months to get one's tank fully stocked. With fishless you can fully stock when the cycling is done.

 

[Gruntle]

Do you know anyone who has an established tank? If so, you may be able to swap some of your filter media (ceramics, bioballs, sponge etc) for some from their tank, it will help immensely. Don't take more than 1/3 from their tank, and you will speed up the production of beneficial bacteria.

 

[duplosion]

Thanks, guys.
 
I've continued with daily water changes for now (15% when the ammonia reads .25, and 25% when it reads .5). So far, the fish still seem very energetic and full of good color.
 
I called a local fish shop this weekend, and they agreed to straight up trade me a set of their established filter pads for a set of brand new pads, so I'll be heading there today. I'll also buy some established media from them while I'm there.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Can you explain why your arr changing water at either of those levels of total ammonia? During cycling with fish, one is intentionally allowing the fish to be exposed to ammonia,so  it is only a question of how much for how long. In any properly conducted cycle there are a limited number of days where there is any ammonia showing at all and even fewer where it is high.
 
At .25 or .5 ppm of total ammonia, when cycling, the only way to know if this is harmful is to know how much of the reading is NH3 vs NH4. And this depends upon the pH and temperature of the water (the higher the more toxic). Then it also depends on what fish are involved.
 
Most tanks at .25 or .5 ppm can be tolerated by the standard cycling fish for some time without needing water to be changed. In fact it is possible yto be as high as 2 ppm in certain situations for some time before one must act.
 
There is basically a point at which either the ammonia level and/or the time of exposure that that level will being doing harm to fish. And this is why I describe it as a dance. If one wished to do a fish in cycle you must find that balance point between the fastest route to cycled and not harming fish in any permanent way.
 

 
NH3 is highly toxic and frequently limits fish production in intensive systems. It is also dynamic, and when it enters the aquatic system, an equilibrium is established between NH3 and ammonium (NH4+). Of the two, NH3 is far more toxic to fish, and its formation is favored by high pH (>7) and water temperature. When pH exceeds ∼8.5, any NH3 present can be dangerous. In general, a normally functioning aquatic system should contain no measurable NH3 because as soon as it enters the system, it should be removed by aerobic bacteria in the environment. Ammonia test kits do not typically measure NH3 directly but instead measure the combination of NH3 and NH4, referred to as total ammonia nitrogen (TAN). A TAN <1 mg/L is usually not cause for concern unless the pH is >8.5. However, if the amount of NH3 is increased, an explanation should be sought. The amount of toxic NH3 present can be calculated using the TAN, pH, and water temperature. When NH3 levels exceed 0.05 mg/L, damage to gills becomes apparent; levels of 2.0 mg/L are lethal for many fish. Fish exposed to ammonia may be lethargic and have poor appetites. Acute toxicity may be suggested by neurologic signs such as spinning, disorientation and convulsions.

from www.merckmanuals.com/vet/exotic_and_laboratory_animals/fish/environmental_diseases_of_fish.html
 
As an example- a test reading of .5 ppm in a tank with a pH of 7.8, at a temperature of 78F, the amount of NH3 is .0184 ppm. Most research indicates that the sort of fish we keep in fw tanks are safe at .02 ppm or lower. Salmonids (salmon, trout, chars, freshwater whitefishes and graylings), water bugs and inverts are at the most sensitive end of the spectrum.
 
So as you can see, there is no exact level of total ammonia at which one should change water during a fishin cycle. However, one can also assume that there is never a need to be over 2 ppm of total ammonia for any reason and and bit lower would be a fine cutoff point as well.

 

[duplosion]

Can you explain why your arr changing water at either of those levels of total ammonia? During cycling with fish, one is intentionally allowing the fish to be exposed to ammonia,so  it is only a question of how much for how long. In any properly conducted cycle there are a limited number of days where there is any ammonia showing at all and even fewer where it is high.
 
At .25 or .5 ppm of total ammonia, when cycling, the only way to know if this is harmful is to know how much of the reading is NH3 vs NH4. And this depends upon the pH and temperature of the water (the higher the more toxic). Then it also depends on what fish are involved.
 
Most tanks at .25 or .5 ppm can be tolerated by the standard cycling fish for some time without needing water to be changed. In fact it is possible yto be as high as 2 ppm in certain situations for some time before one must act.
 
There is basically a point at which either the ammonia level and/or the time of exposure that that level will being doing harm to fish. And this is why I describe it as a dance. If one wished to do a fish in cycle you must find that balance point between the fastest route to cycled and not harming fish in any permanent way.
 

 
NH3 is highly toxic and frequently limits fish production in intensive systems. It is also dynamic, and when it enters the aquatic system, an equilibrium is established between NH3 and ammonium (NH4+). Of the two, NH3 is far more toxic to fish, and its formation is favored by high pH (>7) and water temperature. When pH exceeds ∼8.5, any NH3 present can be dangerous. In general, a normally functioning aquatic system should contain no measurable NH3 because as soon as it enters the system, it should be removed by aerobic bacteria in the environment. Ammonia test kits do not typically measure NH3 directly but instead measure the combination of NH3 and NH4, referred to as total ammonia nitrogen (TAN). A TAN <1 mg/L is usually not cause for concern unless the pH is >8.5. However, if the amount of NH3 is increased, an explanation should be sought. The amount of toxic NH3 present can be calculated using the TAN, pH, and water temperature. When NH3 levels exceed 0.05 mg/L, damage to gills becomes apparent; levels of 2.0 mg/L are lethal for many fish. Fish exposed to ammonia may be lethargic and have poor appetites. Acute toxicity may be suggested by neurologic signs such as spinning, disorientation and convulsions.

from www.merckmanuals.com/vet/exotic_and_laboratory_animals/fish/environmental_diseases_of_fish.html
 
As an example- a test reading of .5 ppm in a tank with a pH of 7.8, at a temperature of 78F, the amount of NH3 is .0184 ppm. Most research indicates that the sort of fish we keep in fw tanks are safe at .02 ppm or lower. Salmonids (salmon, trout, chars, freshwater whitefishes and graylings), water bugs and inverts are at the most sensitive end of the spectrum.
 
So as you can see, there is no exact level of total ammonia at which one should change water during a fishin cycle. However, one can also assume that there is never a need to be over 2 ppm of total ammonia for any reason and and bit lower would be a fine cutoff point as well.

 
This is extremely helpful, thank you. I didn't realize these things, but it makes a lot of sense.
 
I was changing the water daily based on my ammonia readings because that's what I read to do in various articles online.
 
My water temp is a steady 77 degrees F.
 
My pH is 7.2.
 
My ammonia reading is .5 ppm
 
Using a formula I found online, I calculated an NH3 concentration of .00465 -- does that sound right?

 

[duplosion]

Well, I went to the fish store on Monday. The owner *gave* me two very established filter pads, a piece of established driftwood, and an established artificial plant. They've been in the aquarium for about 52 hours. I just did a water test, and it came up with an ammonia reading of close to 0 ppm. Couldn't be more excited.
 
That owner got a customer for life for helping me out like that.

 

[vrob]

Congrats! I was doing the same thing (daily water changes) until coming here and getting that same info. Nitrites and nitrates looking good? Remember to shake the Nitrate #2 bottle REALLY REALLY good. That got me pretty good recently until one of the members here clued me in.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

duplosion you had it figured right. I double checked and I got .0046. consider that under .02 is considered safe for most anything, your fish were fine in .5 for a bit of time.
 
The key to all this is that cycling with fish should only take about 5 weeks. During the 5 weeks there should only be any ammonia reading for about 14-16 days max. And since ammonia rises, peaks then drops, the actual levels fish might face are not always dangerous for a few days. Once your tank is establish ammonia becomes an enemy at any level because they is no benefit coming from tolerating it for any time as there is from cycling. And lets not forget that the NH3 is not harmless, it is merely way less so the the NJ3.
 
With fish in one should never allow total ammonia to get above 2 ppm even when the level of NH3 is not of real concern. There is no need. At that point water changes are in order. And there is also one more factor, let the fish tell you what is up. They do not like bad levels of ammonia at all and will show it. So, no matter what the test reads, if the fish show they are having problems, change some water.
 
The thing about all this is it is never really necessary to cycle a tank with fish and I hate giving out this sort of info because if people make a mistake trying to follow it, fish get hurt or killed. No matter haw badly one screws up a fishless cycle, the only thing harmed is one's pride.
 
The solution you were able to use of adding bacteria by getting the right things from an established tank or from a viable bottled bacteria product is always the good thing.

 

[duplosion]

Congrats! I was doing the same thing (daily water changes) until coming here and getting that same info. Nitrites and nitrates looking good? Remember to shake the Nitrate #2 bottle REALLY REALLY good. That got me pretty good recently until one of the members here clued me in.

 
Thanks!
 
So far, I've followed the little booklet that came with the test kit to the letter.
 
Right now, ammonia is very close to 0 (not exactly 0, but much closer to 0 than .25). Nitrite is a straight up 0, and nitrate is about a straight up 5ppm. That's the first time I've had a nitrate reading anywhere above 0, which I guess is an encouraging sign.

 

[duplosion]

duplosion you had it figured right. I double checked and I got .0046. consider that under .02 is considered safe for most anything, your fish were fine in .5 for a bit of time.
 
The key to all this is that cycling with fish should only take about 5 weeks. During the 5 weeks there should only be any ammonia reading for about 14-16 days max. And since ammonia rises, peaks then drops, the actual levels fish might face are not always dangerous for a few days. Once your tank is establish ammonia becomes an enemy at any level because they is no benefit coming from tolerating it for any time as there is from cycling. And lets not forget that the NH3 is not harmless, it is merely way less so the the NJ3.
 
With fish in one should never allow total ammonia to get above 2 ppm even when the level of NH3 is not of real concern. There is no need. At that point water changes are in order. And there is also one more factor, let the fish tell you what is up. They do not like bad levels of ammonia at all and will show it. So, no matter what the test reads, if the fish show they are having problems, change some water.
 
The thing about all this is it is never really necessary to cycle a tank with fish and I hate giving out this sort of info because if people make a mistake trying to follow it, fish get hurt or killed. No matter haw badly one screws up a fishless cycle, the only thing harmed is one's pride.
 
The solution you were able to use of adding bacteria by getting the right things from an established tank or from a viable bottled bacteria product is always the good thing.

 
Thank you for the encouragement.
 
I've been a catch and release angler my whole life, and have really developed a sincere respect for fish -- I hate to think of them suffering on account of me. So I'm glad I've seem to have done the did the right things, despite my initial ignorance. 

 

[sadguppy]

That's really nice of the shop, I wish more did that! Sounds like you know what you're doing now, I look forward to seeing your tanks!