How Many Dead Fish Is Enough..

[jua]

I have 3 LFS within a 5 mile radius of my house.

Went to one yesterday - at 10 a.m. and there were 2 dead fish in a tank. The other fish in the tank looked like they were trying to eat it ?? I pointed it out to the one and only assistant and she went straight away to sort it out.

This afternoon at 4pm ish went to another LFS and considering they are part of a 'chain' i was surprised cos there were 5 dead fish in the first 2 tanks I saw..after that I stopped counting.. I discreetly mentioned it to someone at the counter who pointed out to me that they were 'aware but they are short staffed today ???!' and this member of staff didnt inform the others nor do anything about it either..didnt bother to check on my way out whether they were still there or not..

Now..one of the fish i was interested in - happened to be in one of these tanks..so do I assume that perhaps I should not buy from here - cos they may have diseased fish or very stressed out fish ? or they have a very laxidaisical approach to fish keeping ? Or should I just assume that this is the norm ?

Please set me straight..someone ?

 

[Synaesthesia]

I personally would not get fish from a tank with many dead/diseased fish, but that's a personal preference. Ideally, you should get your fish from healthy tanks.

 

[Nick16]

i check all the tanks in my LFS's if there are more than 3 dead in the whole shop i will not buy from them, after all they do use the same water for all the tanks so the chemicals can be nicely spread around!!
its like playing russian roulette in my opinion, one major disease and the whole stock is gone. Very risky.

 

[Clbrtwewill]

My principles in buying fish at this point:

If there are many dead fish in the store's tanks, just go somewhere else. They're most likely using the same nets, same holding containers to transfer fish around so if some are unhealthy in some tanks, probably the majority of the tanks are infected.

If there are dead fish in a tank containing fish I'm interested in, I won't buy them.

If the staff gives bad advice, seems incompetent, or makes excuses about their stock (what I heard recently, IE: "just because there's a dead fish in the tank, doesn't mean that there are any problems with the rest of the fish in the tank"), I go somewhere else.

That may mean traveling a longer distance than desired... but it's been working out; there's only one place in Rochester that I've been purchasing fish for the past year now and it's about 45 minutes from me; an hour and fifteen minutes from my home town.

It's really good that you're inspecting the tanks carefully though =)

And actually, I was in a Walmart last night and just stopped to look at the fish... they have a sign up "DUE TO ILLNESS WE CANNOT SELL FISH." Worst lot of fish I've ever seen: whitespot, bloody red gills, what looks like septicemia, lethargic fish... if it's a disease, I'm pretty sure all of the fish in those tanks have got it... it was both disgusting and really depressing at the same time to witness it.

 

[chrisrm]

It always surprises me when you go to lfs and see numerous dead fish that no one has removed them!

If I were a lfs owner I would presume that knowledgeable fish keepers were buying fish from me and wouldn't dream of buying fish from a tank that had dead fish in it so would make it a priority for staff that it was kept on top of!

I know one lfs near me will quarantine a tank if they have a dead fish in it which can only be a good thing

 

[GuppyGoddess]

Does each tank have it's own filtration system? If not, and all the tanks are linked, then any disease present in one fish can be spread around.

FWIW, almost all the stores around me always end up with a dead fish in one tank. Interestingly enough, the one store that NEVER does is the one I've purchased fish which have ended up having parasites. Regardless of where you buy, you're taking a risk.

 

[chrisrm]

Does each tank have it's own filtration system? If not, and all the tanks are linked, then any disease present in one fish can be spread around.

FWIW, almost all the stores around me always end up with a dead fish in one tank. Interestingly enough, the one store that NEVER does is the one I've purchased fish which have ended up having parasites. Regardless of where you buy, you're taking a risk.

this store has blocks of 4 tanks linked up so all 4 go on hold! they are v. good

agreed there is always the risk!!!

 

[K-Holed]

Dead fish in an LFS is a fact of life. It's not always the LFS's fault and isn't always a sign of a bad retailer. What is a sign of a bad retailer is one that won't keep an eye out for fish dying and take apropriarte action to quarentine their stock before putting it up for sale. Most good LFS's won't sell new stock straight onto the public.

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

Dead fish in an LFS is a fact of life. It's not always the LFS's fault and isn't always a sign of a bad retailer. What is a sign of a bad retailer is one that won't keep an eye out for fish dying and take apropriarte action to quarentine their stock before putting it up for sale. Most good LFS's won't sell new stock straight onto the public.

I agree. With such high stocking levels sometimes you do see dead fish. Kids tapping on the glass of a crowded fish tank is probably quite stressful for the little guys. Not only that, as mentioned, new and stressed arrivals can have a hard time (especially if the stress causes disease.) Best precaution is to not buy out of these tanks and ALWAYS quarantine and medicate before adding them into your display tank. I am sure the employees of the stores you visited where well aware of the dead fish the whole time.

 

[Floyds mum]

I agree just cos there is a ew dead fish in the odd tank doesnt mean there is an epidemic or illness to all or that lfs is a bad one.
The lfs i use occasionally have the odd dead fish in but they still have the best quality fish ive seen, we have a maidenhead aquatics near me and ive not been impressed with them - ive had fish from them and they have all died (through no fault of mine) whre the fish from my lfs have been fine. Im not saying all mha are rubbish but everyone has different expectations. If the store dont give a *** and have no idea what they are on about then dont go to them.

 

[kelly528]

IMO a big indicator of whether the fish store is doing everything they can is the state of decomposition of the fish. A store up the street from me has a handful of dead fish in about every tank in various states of decomposition, from freshly dead to covered in white mould---disgusting! Needless to say, the store has had a few previous clashes with the local SPCA over animal husbandry and every fish I brought home from there (long ago when I was a kid) has caused a pandemic in my tank!

 

[rabbut]

Some responses in this thread have been both laughable and sensible. Let me attempt to clean up a few myths, as well as offering my own advise on how to spot a good LFS

So, a shop has many tanks of fish labeled as "sorry, not for sale, under treatment". Does this make them a bad shop? Well, that depends really, how many tanks are a lot? If say 1/4 of the tanks are in quarantine, or all of these tanks are bunched close together, or are similar species, you can probably deduce that the retailers husbandry isn't up to scratch, as they are somehow cross-infecting tanks. On the other hand, if there is no pattens of infection, it's probable that it isn't husbandry at their end causing the disease outbreaks. Also, the stage of disease at which you can see in the tank makes a difference. If it's mild, it was caught early and the staff are on top of it. If it's all late stages of disease you are seeing, you can deduce they are avoiding taking stuff off sale until it's inexcusable. If there is no pattern and all the disease in in it's really stages, it's probably a good retailer. If there is a pattern of infection, all late stages of infection e.t.c., you can deduce systematic problems are behind the issues. Beware also retailers without tanks under treatment. Many retailers will remove and destroy fish that are showing symptoms over actually treating the issue...

Does the shop quarantine their fish when new in? If so, how long for? How soon after arrival do they start selling new stock? Does quarantine take place in the display systems? If they quarantine new stock, but it's for less than 4 weeks, they are just trying to look good. Quarantine is pointless unless it is carried out for at least 4 weeks, preferable 8 weeks, as the life cycles of most common issued mean that most issues won't show for 4 weeks... Also, there is no point in quarantining fish in a separate system to where they will eventually be sold, as the stress of moving is a main cause of disease outbreak. Fish also should not go directly on sale, they should be rested for at least 20 hours after arrival. I'd actually prefer to buy from a shop that only rests fish for the correct period, to buying from a retailer that messes up their quarantines, as fish are less likely to go over if removed from a stressful environment ASAP, or quarantined in that environment correctly

If all the tanks are connected together, does that mean that one tank with disease means they all have disease in them? In a word no, actually, when correctly set-up, a centralised system is less likely to spread disease about the shop's systems than individual tanks. When set-up incorrectly though, centralised systems are disease traps however... If the shop as a centralised system, you need to ask if it runs UV, if so, how much UV, and what kind of flow goes though the UV. Finally, you need to know the system size. You want to hear that all the system's water passes though the UV unit before it gets returned to tanks, and that all tanks drain back into the filter sump. You want a volume equal to 5X that of the whole system being passed though the system each hour, and you want at least 1W of UV for every 25-50gph of flow though the unit. If multiple tubes are used, you want them plumbed in in parallel. Also, check how old the tubes are, they need to be less than 6 months old to be effective. If the UV is being well applied, the shop is fine to buy from IMO, and is actually less likely to hit you with disease than a shop not running a centralised system. If the UV isn't correctly applied, it's time to start walking in the direction of a competing store...

Now, dead fish per tank. You can't get a set answer to this, as it depends on staff levels, tank decoration, busyness, shop size e.t.c. You will have to use your judgement here. You don't want to see a lot of bodies, but a few are excusable if they are busy, understaffed or the tanks are decorated. If you spot a body, make a mental note if where it is, and point it out. You want the staff member to remove it strait away, inspect all the other stock in that tank, and if there is disease, put them into quarantine and start treatment, otherwise, leave the rest be if they are healthy.

All the best
Rabbut

 

[JustFrozen]

that is a lot of good advice, although i dont see most people going in and interrogating their lfs employees about their practices and equipment. i would think most of them would have no idea what you're talking about anyways - they usually can't answer basic questions about the fish and what to do when you bring them home

and i mean that with all do respect. there's lots of newbie questions and discussions that get left alone, and i for one appreciate you coming in and taking the time to explain, but i cant help but feel that a lot of going that far is unlikely. i for one would be way too uncomfortable asking so many things about stuff i dont yet understand. i think a basic list of things to look for without bugging lfs employees would suffice for the majority of situations - but then again what do i know i'm just a newb

 

[waterdrop]

Rabbut is one of our members who has a lot of store experience. I always find it quite interesting when he tells us this stuff and I take it in the spirit of knowing more being better, whether I use it or not.

Interesting to hear how much care and attention the UV system needs Rabbut, thanks for that!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JustFrozen]

yeah i guess i shouldnt have said anything. i tried to clarify that i'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but i guess it came off that way anyways?

i was only trying to think of my fellow newbie members but in retrospect too much info is better than too little!

its not my place to decide how to shop for fish. i'm sorry if i was being offensive at all =(