how big a tank for small Cichlids???

[Magnum Man]

the 2 fish in this tank ( shown here ) have been in this tank, I handed it over to the tetras, and pretty much gave up on dwarf Cichlids... but these 2 female apisto's, seem to be fine, on opposite ends of this 55 gallon... they have been here so long I forget the type, but they are the same species females... they don't seem to bother the tetras, being alone... I'd be afraid to add another male, and watch the in-fighting begin again... thoughts??? these pictures taken today at feeding, otherwise they have a tendency to hole up..

 

[AJ356]

There are so many cichlids, it's hard to answer this. A breeding pair of smaller cichlids can do well in a 3 foot tank, as a minimum for me. There are some small African shell dwellers that apparently are happy in a 2 foot tank. Myself, not really a fan of cichlids in less than 3 feet length of tank.

 

[Magnum Man]

I have one or two others in a 3 foot - 45 gallon, again both females, a different variety of apisto, that hang on opposite ends of that tank... both of these tanks have so much cover I really only see them at feeding time, both tanks had a male or two, and apparently they were deemed not worthy, by the females, and stressed to death, so all that are left, is females...

 

[Back in the fold]

I wouldn’t have to think twice . Add a male .

 

[GaryE]

You'd have to know what species to get a male.

Tanks sizes for dwarf Cichlids have caused more fights than religions. Well, they have among the people I hang out with.

I have used 24 inch tanks, for single pairs. 30 inch tanks are better, 36 inch tanks fantastic and 4 footers are intriguing. I have my Parananochromis gabonicus in a 4 footer now. My P. brevirostris are in 24, 36 and 48 inch tanks. My P ornatus are in a 24 and a 48.

I've noticed fry growing up with the secretively spawning brevirostris, and I'm tempted to breed a pair in a 48 inch jungle of a tank to see what sort of social structure could develop.

I don't keep any Apistogramma species anymore. I can't get natural forms here, and anyway, I have this thing about similar fish from Africa.

 

[anewbie]

it all depends on the species; with some species a 10 is fine; with many species a 20 long is min with some species a 55 is too small. It also depends on what else is in the aquarium and how it is laid out.

You frequently have two issues regardless of tank size; how you scape them and what else you put in the aquarium.

I will say from your picture that your substrate is not really suitable for most species of sa dwarf cichild and for that matter west african - the reason is simple they like to shift through the substrate and the larger stones can cause damage to their gills. How much shifting they do depends on the species but in general fine non-sharp substrate is best. Also there are territorial and aggression issues - the level of which depends on the species but most will fight to protect their youngs.

Simply put when you have a male/female unless there is well defined borders they can defend you should not be mixing a lot of other low level fishes. The two females by themselves dont' have youngs to protect and lack the desire to establish a border for breeding.

 

[anewbie]

I don't keep any Apistogramma species anymore. I can't get natural forms here, and anyway, I have this thing about similar fish from Africa.

I'm pretty sure i've seen a few canadian shops advertising wc also some species like nijjensi and panduro only come in 'natural' form - though i prefer wc - nijjnesi are one of my favorite but a species kept with only a few high dithers.

Anyway the world is a mess right now and probably will remain so for at least the next 3 1/2 years which is really hurting imports everywhere even in the usa.

 

[GaryE]

I will say from your picture that your substrate is not really suitable for most species of sa dwarf cichild and for that matter west african - the reason is simple they like to shift through the substrate and the larger stones can cause damage to their gills. How much shifting they do depends on the species but in general fine non-sharp substrate is best.

That's a key point for anyone looking to Apistos - they are Geophagines, part of the eartheater group. In tanks, they can live over gravel, but you'll never see the full range of their interesting behaviour. They dig to feed, breed and claim territory.

I'm pretty sure i've seen a few canadian shops advertising wc also some species like nijjensi and panduro only come in 'natural' form - though i prefer wc - nijjnesi are one of my favorite but a species kept with only a few high dithers.

I like njisseni and panduro, but they're fish I've bred so many times they no longer hold any interest - just admiration. They're beauties. I just got two new species of Parananochromis and a Chromidotilapia from a European visitor, and have reasonable hopes of some Pelvicachromis I haven't kept for a long time.

There are a lot of local fishkeepers hoping someday to get Apistos - they're a holy grail fish around here. I've thought about grabbing a red cacatuoides or the veijita morphs that are around and breeding up a bunch. But that would take a tank or two out of circulation. I'm greedy about my space.

 

[anewbie]

There are a lot of local fishkeepers hoping someday to get Apistos - they're a holy grail fish around here. I've thought about grabbing a red cacatuoides or the veijita morphs that are around and breeding up a bunch. But that would take a tank or two out of circulation. I'm greedy about my space.

I'd skip the 'veijita morphs' they are nothing more than macs with fancy names and over priced. Now if you could get true veijita that would be another matter; if you want a mac then look for one that gets your fancy but leave off the vejitia tag which doubles the price. To be truthful there are so many species i think are more interesting than both cockatoo and macs such as those from the iniridae group. Many of those species are relatively docile and make a nice harem in a large enough aquarium.

It depends if you want beauty or interesting behavior - though i suspect you have a soft spot for wc cockatoo.

 

[GaryE]

I actually like the mcmasteri group. I had wild veijitas a couple of times, and bred them. I think my favourite Apistos are veijita, cacatuoides, njisseni and borellii. Very old school and not cutting edge new finds (though njisseni was when I first had them), but I like the higher body shapes.
What I see here as veijita is often cheaper than what they sell as mcmasteri, but the colours are so linebred it hardly makes a difference. Right now, the veijita types are the most common Apisto in this market.
The iniridae group never caught me. Nice little fish, but while I kept a few, they never became favourites.
Early on, I found a small French book on West Africans, and only got into Apistos when I couldn't find those fish. Now I can find Africans, though not easily. The iniridae group is nice, but Nanochromis and Paranochromis are more interesting (to me). Not all are colourful and some are the opposite of flashy, but the complexity of behaviour.... Steatocranus are also characters, and I never tire of good old Pelvicachromis.
If all goes well, I'll have my second round of dwarf Cichlid and killie collecting this winter, this time in West Africa rather than Central Africa. That's still being worked out logistically.

In the direction of this thread, what @Magnum Man said about forgetting the type is a nagging thought. You can't just put any Apistogramma male in with 2 females and expect good things. If you get the wrong species, at best they'd ignore him (which would defeat the fishwatching purpose) and at worst they'd kill him.

 

[AJ356]

it all depends on the species; with some species a 10 is fine; with many species a 20 long is min with some species a 55 is too small. It also depends on what else is in the aquarium and how it is laid out.

I mean, with a breeding pair of the smallest shell dwellers you could, at a push, maybe do it in a 10 gallon, but why would someone? 10 gallon tanks are for snails or shrimp, or small fry.

As an experieced fish keeper that you seem to be, I'm disappointed you would advocate for 10 gallon tanks for any cichlids unless they are fry. We should be striving to do better for our fish. They are used to small spaces when they are still in the retail path/journey, but we are supposed to be giving them the best home possible, not just the bare minimum.

 

[anewbie]

What I see here as veijita is often cheaper than what they sell as mcmasteri, but the colours are so linebred it hardly makes a difference. Right now, the veijita types are the most common Apisto in this market.

I want to stress this to keep others from becoming confused. There is an actual species apistogramma veijita (there is no such thing are veijita type); and 99.99% of what is being sold these days under the label veijita are just macs that have been bred to look similar but genetically they are macs and not veijita.

 

[anewbie]

Here is a link to a post that describes some of the differences between the species:

Macmasteri ID

Hi. I'm sorry for asking a very common question, I've looked at all the photos in my books and read the descriptions and I'm not confident 100% with my ID. They are wild and came directly from a Colombian exporter and were listed as viejita but I knew that meant nothing and that they would be...

apistogramma.com

 

[anewbie]

I mean, with a breeding pair of the smallest shell dwellers you could, at a push, maybe do it in a 10 gallon, but why would someone? 10 gallon tanks are for snails or shrimp, or small fry.

As an experieced fish keeper that you seem to be, I'm disappointed you would advocate for 10 gallon tanks for any cichlids unless they are fry. We should be striving to do better for our fish. They are used to small spaces when they are still in the retail path/journey, but we are supposed to be giving them the best home possible, not just the bare minimum.

Some people only have a space for a 10; and there are a couple of very small sa cichild that will fit comfortably in a 10. Also not a cichild but dario dario work well in a 10.

 

[GaryE]

I'd argue there are veijita types, once the species get messed up by human breeders. I think the differences between species are evident in wild caught fish, with the great clue being locality of capture. But once linebreeding hits and they become marketed names, you aren't always dealing with species anymore.

It's the difference between what we see in the commerce (often types) and what we see from nature (species). About 25 years ago, we began to see red or super red mcmasteri and veijita, and whether they've converged or one has been dropped by commercial breeders doesn't really matter. Linebred fish are one thing, and I'd argue wild species are another.

if you want to see what a veijita or a mcmasteri looks like, don't look at the Czech or Singapore versions.

I used to get agassizzi from localities of capture, and they were very distinct looking fish. They could even be different to breed, with different water qualities seemingly needed. Now in stores, I see golden or red agas, quite different in everything but shape from the wild caught ones. So what are they? I'd say interesting types of fish that don't really represent the fish in nature.