Hole In The Head

[Miss Wiggle]

Tank size: Juwel Trigon 350l
pH: 7.4
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 5 (although admittedly this was tested today after a big water change yesterday, it's higher mid-late week)
kH:
gH:
tank temp: 26oC

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior): Between my bad back and doing the house up I've known for the last month or so that I've not really been looking after oscars tank properly, skimped a bit on water changes and gravel vaccing, came to the decision about 2 weeks ago that I needed to re-home him and sell the tank before he got poorly as I couldn't maintain the tank, had a home all set up and he was due to be going in about 2 weeks time, a couple of days ago i noticed two patches above/behind each eye, look like the flesh is starting to be eaten away, they have worsened over the last few days and I think I've diagnosed it as Hole in the head, done some reading and it looks tricky to treat, thankfully i have a co-operative vet who is getting me some metronidazole in tomorrow or the day after. he's still eating well, active and colorful so I'm just hoping I've caught it early enough to be able to treat it. vet has advised to give him a bath in it for an hr every day, i understand you use 7mg per litre, we're getting 100mg. we'll have to find a large bucket or something to put him in for his baths.

Volume and Frequency of water changes: weekly 30%

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: put in some pimafix today, probably not much good but just thought it may help prevent secondary infections in the day or two before i can get the proper meds

Tank inhabitants: 1 oscar around 10", 1 Synodontis nigrita 7", 1 chocolate albino common plec 7"

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): None

Exposure to chemicals: None

Digital photo (include if possible):

So basically, is what the vets giving me any good? Is he right that I should just bath the fish rather than treat the whole tank? What is the risk of the other fish catching it? Should I move him or them out of the tank, we've a spare 25ish gallon tank in the cellar however setting it up would mean removing some filtration from oscars tank and i think in this case keeping the water sparkling is a priority. Realistically what are the chances of curing him? I'm going to have to pay for this course of meds on my credit card, I strongly doubt if I can afford more treatments so there's a fair chances that if I can't treat him from the first lot of meds we'll have to put him out of his misery

I'm absolutely heartbroken about this, I know it's entirely my fault and believe me nothing you can say could make me feel any worse about this than I already do. To be quite honest I just feel like selling everything now, don't feel like I should be in charge of animals.

 

[WILDER]

http/www.nationalfishpharm.com/articles/hexamita.html

 

[Miss Wiggle]

http/www.nationalfishpharm.com/articles/hexamita.html

Thanks Wilder, that article doesn't say weather the external form of the parasite is contagious to the other fish or not, do you know if it is?

I did tell the vet that from what I knew it was best treated with medicated food but he said it was very expensive and would take ages to get made by which time it might be too late for him so best to go with the liquid form. Didn't realise I could make medicated food myself as explained in that article. well at least he'll have the right meds so hopefully should be able to treat it.

 

[WILDER]

I would treat the whole tank to be honest.
Yes you have the right med for hole in the head get you some instructions on the med.
Tolak knows how to mix the med in food.

Metronidazole: (FLAGYL) Treatment of hole in the head disease (
hexamita ) salt water ich or bloat. 250 ml per 20 gallons of water, and can be mixed in foods.

 

[Tolak]

Metro is the proper med for hexamita, which has been implicated in HITH. Carbon filtration is another that many keepers of larger N.W. cichlids avoid, as this has been implicated as well.

It’s good to know of a local vet who will prescribe something like that. If the other fish are eating and appear normal there is no reason to waste meds treating the larger tank. If you are using the smaller tank you will have to do at least 50% water changes daily. Metro, along with vitamin enhanced food and really clean water is the key to healing HITH.

It takes a lot of metronidazole to get to the toxic range, for adding to food I put some frozen food in a small glass, and add enough metro to make it look like a small powdered doughnut, then mix it in. Angels are prone to the internal version, hexamita or spironucleus. I have treated angels numerous times for this.

Vitamin enhanced food is easy. Take a good cichlid pellet, and some liquid multivitamins. Drip some of the vitamins on the food & let it soak in, you now have vitamin enhanced pellets.

Bringing up the temperature a little will help. Since the fish is still eating I wouldn’t go above 28c. For fish that aren’t eating I bring the temperature up as high as I think is safe for the fish. For an oscar 30c would be about the max, I had a small oscar that wouldn’t eat up that high, he was 1â€￾ then, he’s about 9â€￾ a year later.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

ok i'm gonna get the smaller tank set up for him in a little bit, vets said i could pick the meds up after 2 today so i can start treating him soon.

i'm chuffed with the vets though, i was expecting a right battle but he was really soun, took in my book on fish health which gives the info on the disease and how to treat it with pictures of it, and took some pictures of oscar to show the symptoms. they initially said could i bring him in, in his tank. explained that the tank's the best part of 100gallons and they soon decided it was ok to just go from a picture!

when you say liquid multi vitamins, do you mean ones designed for humans?

is it best to try and find a way to add it to his food (bear in mind i think i'm getting a liquid) or to just dose the tank he's in? i've some big cichlid pellets that take a while to soften when you put them in the tank, was thinking i could maybe soak them in it then feed him them?

50% water changes daily is no problem (well it's a ball ache but i'll live!)

thanks for the help people, really appreciate it.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

ok, got the metro, it's in liquid form, thankfully was only 20 quid so i can afford another bag if need be

what the vets said to do is to give him a bath for an hr a day in a largeish bucket with the right amount of it in with tank water. is this ok or should i be soaking his food in it?

i'm gonna pop out for some liquid multi vitamins in a bit so i'll get some medicated food in him as well, and i'm doing water tests daily on the main tank, when nitrate gets about 20ppm i'll do a big water change (and obviously at any signs of ammonia/nitrite although this is unlikely) although he'll be getting small daily changes as i'll siphon out tank water to bath him in then add new water to replace it.

just waiting for any advice you guys can give me and i'll start treatment tonight.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

right, if i do the bath's the next problem is what to put him in to treat him. i've 100ml of solution and have been told to use 5ml per 4 litres of water.

if i put him in the tub i wanted to treat him in, to get enough water to cover him comfortably you use 25litres, so need to use 31ml, so i could only treat for 3 days.

so i figure if i can put him in something smaller the treatment can go on for longer and have more chance of working. from my reading i'd like to treat him for 7-10 days, does that sound about right?

so the biggest small container i have is a 3 gallon bucket, so 12.5litres which means i can treat for 6 days.

is a 3gal bucket too small to put him in for an hr each day? i can make sure it's aerated and at the right temp, he'd physically fit in it but not really any room for turning round or anything like that.

obviously i don't want to stress him out by confining him, just trying to work out the most effective way of treatment. should i go and try and find a compromise, like a 4/5 gallon bucket?

 

[nmonks]

Hello Miss Wiggle --

Bit out of my league, I'm afraid. But my fish health bible (Interpet Manual of Fish Health) says the following:

• Metronidazole for treating Hexamita (HITH) as a continuous bath.
• One treatment in isolation tank at 7 mg/l usually adequate.
• Can be repeated every OTHER day for up to THREE applications, with a 25% water change between them.

Given you need to bath the oscar continuously for potentially several days, a bucket isn't really viable. I'd treat the tank if I didn't have a hospital tank. I'd also remove some of the filter media beforehand, just in case the medication harms the filter bacteria. It shouldn't, but you never know.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Miss Wiggle]

if i'm understanding that right i should put him in a hospital tank (got a 25ishgal tank downstairs that could do or fill up the big oscar tub which probably holds 15gal and could have a filter and heater put in) medicate and water change on alternate days for 6 days.

if i need to do 3 treatments, with the amount of med i have the biggest i can put him in is 6 gallons, i can't leave him in that for 6 days realistically, that's teensy, can get another bag of the same and then he could go in something around 12/13gallons. just looking at my 10 gal tank now and that's no way big enough for him for a week.

god i'm so confused what to do now!

i'm thinking the baths for an hr or maybe 2 hrs a day would be the best bet, if i get another bag of solution i can do 6 days of 2hrs a day in 6 gallons of water, that size i can filter and heat and although it's small wouldn't be awful for a couple of hrs at a time. i don't like the thought of moving him every day but i think that's better than being really cramped, and i can maybe melafix his main tank to help prevent any secondary infections from developing.

 

[nmonks]

Why can't you treat the whole aquarium where he is?

Seriously, I don't think short baths are going to work here. If the fish needs a continuous bath, he needs a continuous bath. Putting him into the water for two hours might help, but the problem with antibiotics is they only work when used as prescribed, and when messed about with either don't work, or make the problem worse, or both.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Why can't you treat the whole aquarium where he is?

Seriously, I don't think short baths are going to work here. If the fish needs a continuous bath, he needs a continuous bath. Putting him into the water for two hours might help, but the problem with antibiotics is they only work when used as prescribed, and when messed about with either don't work, or make the problem worse, or both.

Cheers, Neale

the tanks 350l, to treat the whole tank once i'd need 437ml of solution, i've got 100ml and i'm absolutely broke, i can stretch to getting another 100ml but i simply can't afford the amount of meds to treat him in the tank where he is.

the vet who prescribed it said baths would be fine. i'm just so confused and i don't know what to do.

as i said in my first post i know i can't look after the tank at the moment which is exactly why i was going to sell him, obviously that's all fallen through now and i can't sell him as he is so i have to do what i can to treat him, but i can't just magic up money from nowhere, just trying to find a solution with what i have now.

i do really appreciate yours and everyone else's help with this. me and Ian both have viral throat infections, he can barely get out of bed, i'm doing my best to get everyone better and i'm so stressed now.

on the plus side though i've found some water soluble multi vitamins so i'll be soaking his food in these and i can do water changes galore so that's two out of three things sorted. just have to figure out how to get the best out of what meds i can get

 

[nmonks]

No discussion here: Do what the vet told you. After all, they're the ones with the knowledge and training.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Miss Wiggle]

No discussion here: Do what the vet told you. After all, they're the ones with the knowledge and training.

Cheers, Neale

thanks Neale

I get myself so worked up and confused sometimes, quite simple when you put it like that!

i'm reasonably happy with the idea of him going in 6 gallons for 2hrs a day, it'd be a shallow 6 gals so room to turn and swim around just not much height which i think is the best use of space.

 

[nmonks]

No probs. All three o' you get well soon.

Cheers, Neale