High Nitrate Levels

[ColombiaBill]

Hello everyone, first day here
 
I am very new to the fish keeping hobby unless someone who had three goldfish for about a month some 45 years ago,. can be called an expert. I have a problem, that I think I know the answer to, but would like some input from the other members.
 
My wife bought a 10 gallon tank about three months ago, we went merrily on our way stocking it without any knowledge of the nitrogen cycle or input from the vendor, I live in Colombia, as my handle says, but communication is not an issue as we are both fluent Spanish, I am Canadian. The small tank was A BIG MISTAKE as I have seen on many sites that they can be much harder to care for, particularly with wáter parameters, than a larger tank would be. I think that we will soon be moving to a larger tank, perhaps a 180 once I have the confidence to proceed, I am getting a lot of satisfaction out of the one I have now. I have spent over 100 hours on the net researching community tanks, would dearly love a rainbow shark but the combatibility issue keeps rearing it´s ugly head, lol.
 
Back to my problem, I am sure that my tank is overstocked, I have perhaps 16 inches of fish in it and based on the gallonage and surface área guidelines, it looks to be so. I had some fish die off, specifically cardinal tetras, and read that they are succeptable to high nitrate levels. Out I went and bought the API freshwater test kit and my readings confirmed my suspicions, Ammonia was 2.0 PPM, Nitrites .25 PPM and Nitrates 80 PPM.  That was five days ago, since then I have done two 25 percent wáter changes, one 50 percenter and vacuumed the whole tank twice. My readings are now 0 for Ammonia and Nitrates but still 40 PPM for Nitrates. I have read that 60 PPM is acceptable but other sites indicate that many hobbyists aim for zero or close to that, in any event I would dearly love to get that reading below 20. 
 
If your input is that I am overstocked, I would look at buying a larger tank, perhaps 40 gallons, and use it as my sump should we go to the 180. I have also considered taking some fish back, the problem is that my wife has named them all so I´m sure she would not sanction their return. And remember, when mama´s not happy, no one´s happy. I will also tell you that my wáter here is nitrate free.
 
So the question is, do I continue as now in the short term, are my fish at serious risk, or do I opt for the larger tank right away to be safe. I guess the second part of the question is whether a 40 is sufficient size as a sump for the 180. The last thing I want is a bunch of money tied up in equipment that I am not likely to ever need. Input from the experts would be greatly appreciated.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The very best thing you can do is to have a read here http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first
 
The tank is not cycled and with that the fish load your describe it is likely no possible to get the tank cycled with the fish now in it.
 
Please explain to your wife that the alternatives are to return some named fish or to risk having to flush their dead bodies in the not too distant future. To give you an idea of what fish should have been in your tank from the start to begin the cycling process, it would have been one or two zebra danios or small barbs. After 4 weeks or so with only a few water changes the tank would have been cycled for them. You could either then have replaced them with 2 other similar sized fish and then proceeded by adding a third. This would have caused a mini-cycle, but nothing as severe or long as the initial one. After thatsettled down, adding one more small fish would have probably had almost no cycling effect on the tank in terms of harming fish. Basically, the goal is not to increase the bio-load being added by more than about another 25%. This is harder to do in smaller tanks, which is why the second phase in them will usually have a noticeable cycling spike.
 
Nitrate is not your worry, ammonia and nitrite kill fish long before nitrate. When done properly, a fish in cycle should get one to fully stocked within three months for sure. And this mean 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite whenever you test. At that stage water changes and/or live plants will handle normal nitrate levels.
 
Also, to know at what level your ammonia reading is an issue requiring a water change, we need to know both your tank water pH and temperature.These two things determine how much of the ammonia in your reading is in the dangerous form.
 
The best thing you can do is to add the needed bacteria to the tank and to take some of the fish out. However, this may not be so easy in Colombia. Do you know folks with cycled tanks? Would your fish store donate some filter media or gravel from theirs? I am not sure if either of the two brands of bottled bacteria I would recommend are available there- Dr. Tim's is most likley not and I do not know about Tetra's Safe Start.

 

[ColombiaBill]

Thanks twotank
 
PH is 6.4, temp is 73.

 

[BrianMcC]

Hey, welcome to the forum
I agree with twotanksamin above and would raise your temp a bit
what kind of fish do you have?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Well there is some good news and some not so good news.
 
The good news is at your pH and temp. (which I agree could be a few degrees higher) ammonia is almost completely in its less toxic form. That does not mean it can not do harm, but the level at which is does so are just about where you were. But it needs to be there a while. Ammonia becomes less toxic the lower the pH and the cooler the temp.
 
Unfortunately, nitrite becomes more toxic the lower the pH. However, there is good news hiddien in this. It is possible, over short term periods to combat the effects of nitrite in fiish by adding some salt to a tank, How much depends on the level of nitrtite. Many fw fish do not like salt and can not handle it for any period of time, but nost will do so for a week or too during cycling or disease treatment.
 
I see a double whammy at work here. The lower pH retards cycling. It doesn't make it impossible, but it can make it take much more time. It also makes it harder to add bottled bacteria products or bacteria from cycled tanks which are not close to the same pH. Cardinal are more ammonia tolerant than many realize but they don't do so well with nitrite. In any case this all makes it more important that you reduce your fish load or increase the tank size. 2 ppm of ammonia in a 10 gal become .5 ppm in a 40 gal. remember, you are reading the concentration of these things in the water, so the more water you have, the lower the concentration should for any given amount of ammonia or nitrite.
 
Please keep us advised as to what your are doing re moving some fish out, finding suitable donated bacteria and upsizing the tank as well as your test results etc. If you can add some live plants that work in that pH, it would also help.

 

[ColombiaBill]

Twotank
 
Thanks very much for your further comments, I think the answer is the larger tank, that will keep the better half happy. But I need clarification on one point. My ammonia has been zero for three days, I managed to reduce it with two wáter changes and it has not moved for the last three. I am understanding that this is just the start of a trend but in your opinión, is it hopeful that it will continue with ¨¨more than regular¨¨ wáter changes and what might that frequency be. All of this to be kept in mind until I procure something around 40 gals. This is a steep learning curve for me, I don´´t think I came across any discussion of how temp and ph are affectors of the cycle but it is now filed in the grey matter for future reference. I will also research some plants to help with the nitrates. As an aside, I wanted to keep an eye on the PH changes as I understand raising it quickly is detrimental as well, as I said, my tap ph here is around 8.
 
One thing no one has addressed is part two of the question, would the 40 gal serve adequately later if we did in fact go to the 180. I have looked at some sump schematics but not yet found a recommended ratio of pump to aquarium size. Thanks to BrianMcC for his input as well.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Bill- it isn't the cycle so much as the fish, in terms of ammonia. The bacteria prefer the toxic ammonia, the fish do not. There are big differences between a fishless and a fish in cycle. In the former, toxic.non-toxic doesn't matter as long as the pH is kept a bit higher than yours. But I assume you are using tap water that is low pH which would bring in the right bacteria, ones adapted to a more acid pH. But for fish in there are a whole different and additional set of considerations and factors involved. Fishless is simpler, faster and safer for fish.
 
That ammonia is not showing after 3 days is a good sign, what about nitrite? As long as ammonia is 0 or very low, the nitrite is more important. The way nitrite harms and kills fish is by blocking the ability of fish blood to carry oxygen. So fish appear to be suffocating even in an oxygen rich environment. They will be gasping at the surface.
 
So keep monitoring your levels and reporting them here if you are uncertain about things. I would not be alarmed if i saw 1 ppm of ammonia in your tank or even 2. However, I would be about nitrite at those levels.

 

[ColombiaBill]

Twotank
 
Thanks again. Nitrite is also at zero, it started at .25, dropped to.10 and now has been at zero, also for three days. Even though my only concern .....RIGHT NOW.... is the nitrate, I think the plan to go larger, cycle properly, introduce plants later, maybe up the temp a bit with a heater, take a few back to the dealer and get these guys in a better overall situation is the best response. I understand people getting emotionally involved with dogs, cats and horses, etc but fish !!!!!!!!!! put me in the latter group now, lol. thanks again.

 

[starangel]

This can be very confusing. I have been keeping fish for about a year now, I'm no expert. however I found that you can cycle a tank with feeder goldfish not to many just enough to get the tank started. I also started a tank with Guppies and now have a loaded 10 gal tank, they keep having babies. Here I use a product called Prime in the water when I do water changes, I also use Quick start and Stress coat and a little Aqua salt. The water gets 25% change every week. I have Guppys, Mollys, Bettas, female Bettas and a community tank. Once I started doing the water changes once a week every thing started getting better.I hardly test my water now and don't forget to re use your filter cartrage, the good bateria grows on it. I take mine out once in awhile just to clean it off and I swish it around in used fish water. Might not be what others do but this works for me. I keep the water around 79-80 a bit cooler for the guppys. They are in a 10 gal. tank and there is to many if you go by the book but I have air in all my tanks and filters, gravel, and most important live plants. 
So maybe if you can get things under control, momma can keep her fish. But I would still consider a bigger tank I'm trying to make room for a 55 gal or two. 
Good luck

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Cycling with feeder goldfish is not a good idea and most informational sites recommend against it. Feeders are often carriers of things one does not want in a tank. In tropical tanks the preferred fish would be zebra danios or some or the small barbs. In a cool water tank, small goldfish,but not feeders, are the standard fish used. Mollies iften get used in both brackish tanks and sw tanks as a cycling fish.
 
The is no reason to put salt into a fw tank on a permanent basis. It can be used for emergency tretaments.
 
Save your money on the Quick Start. It contains the wrong nitrite oxidizing bacteria. It has Nitrobacter and what ends up in tanks is Nitrospira.
 

 
Aquaria which received a commercial preparation containing Nitrobacter species did not show evidence of Nitrobacter growth and development but did develop substantial populations of Nitrospira-like species. Time series analysis of rDNA phylotypes on aquaria biofilms by DGGE, combined with nitrite and nitrate analysis, showed a correspondence between the appearance of Nitrospira-like bacterial ribosomal DNA and the initiation of nitrite oxidation. In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.

From http/aem.asm.org/content/64/1/258.full

 

[ech0o]

Bill, if ammonia and nitrite hold fast at 0, the tank is cycled.   The concern at that point will be the end result of the nitrogen cycle, nitrate.   Your fish are going to be TOTALLY fine with nitrate readings of up to 80ppm IMO.   I just did my monthly water change on our large 56gallon community tank, tested nitrates before the change and they were at around 80ppm, which is normal for my tank right around the time my scheduled water change is to take place.  I have only 25" of fish in a 56 gallon tank, so you can imagine that with that many fish in such a small environment, you may have to be doing much more frequent water changes to lower the nitrates.   Fast growing plants are another way to lower your nitrate level as it is prime plant food!!