Hi All! New To This So A Few Questions!

[Darkcat]

Hi Guys, ive been looking at getting a tropical tank for years and have finally done it. its just a small one to get me started (60L)
I have had it running for about a week and thought it was time to get a few fish in there.
So this morning i got just a few - 5x neon tetra, and 2x red honey gourami. i'll get a load more once the aquarium is more established.

Im running the tank at 24/25c. and have a small pump/filter running. sand base with small gravel on top, planted with various plants and a couple of hiding places (which the fish are ignoring so far!)

Ok so the questions:
1. water flow - how much water movement do fish actually like? they dont want to be fighting a current all the time obviously....
2. how much of the day should i leave the lights on in the tank?
3. the pump is creating a good strong ripple on the surface, will the tank require extra airation? and how would i tell?
4. now the fish: The 2 gourami seem rather hyperactive, they are all over the place, is this normal? i was told they tend to be shy and hide a lot. The tetra -one of them seems to be starting fights! again is this normal?

Thanks in advance D

Peter

 

[Skins]

Welcome to TFF,
The first thing you need to know is your filter will not be cycled, what i mean by this is there will be no established bacteria to process any of your waters toxins(ammonia/nitrite).
as soon as fish poo,wee or any food they don't eat and even plants that start to die this will produce ammonia which is poison to fish.

I don't want to sound rude or blunt but may i suggest you ask your pet shop if you can take them back until your tank has been cycled. If not you may have to prepare yourself for some losses.
If you already havn't it will also be a good idea to get yourself a test kit(API Freshwater master kit).

Keep us posted whether you manage to return them or not so you can get some more advice.

Skins.

 

[Carlovel1]

Welcome to TFF,
The first thing you need to know is your filter will not be cycled, what i mean by this is there will be no established bacteria to process any of your waters toxins(ammonia/nitrite).
as soon as fish poo,wee or any food they don't eat and even plants that start to die this will produce ammonia which is poison to fish.

I don't want to sound rude or blunt but may i suggest you ask your pet shop if you can take them back until your tank has been cycled. If not you may have to prepare yourself for some losses.
If you already havn't it will also be a good idea to get yourself a test kit(API Freshwater master kit).

Keep us posted whether you manage to return them or not so you can get some more advice.

Skins.

I agree with everything above, basically, you need to fishlessly cycle your tank properly. And you will find most of your Neon Tetras will die slowly one by one, which happens commonly in un-cycled tank

 

[Curiosity101]

Woah guys... lets not be misleading here.

The OP NEEDS to know about the nitrogen cycle, and how to cycle a tank. But they don't have to do a fishless cycle.

To Darkcat - Everything that has been said is true, but there are a few bits being left out.

You can grow the bacterial colonies neccesary to maintain a healthy tank either using fish and the ammonia they excrete, or using ammonia from a bottle.

Now although I totally agree that fishless is much much easier. It is definitely for you to make your own informed decision on which cycle you want to do. You need to read the links in my signature TODAY.

No joke... TODAY. You've introduced ALOT of fish into that volume of water when you consider the fact it has absolutely no bacterial colony to deal with the waste. The ammonia will be going up very very rapidly.

To cycle a 60l with the fish-in method you'd want to add... 1-2guppys at most (or other non sensitive fish that are 2-3cm max).
Neons (as carlovel said), are VERY sensitive. They aren't normally suitable for new pre cycled tanks, nevermind fish in cycling!
And the honeys really are too big to be cycling a 60l tank with... however if you wanted to do a fish-in cycle (though again I must stress that fishless IS easier), then I suggest returning all the neons and one of the honey gouramis to the store tomorrow.

In the meantime it's very important you do a 50% water change minimum.

And regardless of whether you want to go down the fishless, or fish-in cycling route you need to get yourself a good liquid based test kit. You don't neccesarily have to get a full one like the API master test kit (it's around £26 in store, or £18-20 from ebay). You could just get the liquid based ammonia kit for now.
Eitherways if you do decide on fish-in cycling then you need a test kit tomorrow... not when it arrives in the post in a few days cause that'll likely be too late (unless you're willing to do 80% water changes daily until the test kit arrives).

And just so you know what to look out for, ammonia poisoning first shows up as the fish 'gasping'. They will then often try to take air from the top of the tank, and then they will become quite quiet and sluggish (still with heavy breathing).
This is because ammonia burns the gills and makes gas exchange much less efficient.
Normally when you see the signs it's too late, but hopefully if yours aren't showing any signs yet then a few big water changes (till you get a test kit) will see them through.

Welcome to the fish forums by the way. Sorry my first post to you was so heavy... but it's a fact that the ammonia will be going up in your tank. It's likely to already be well above the recommended fish-in cycling level (and definitely above 0, which is the only truely safe level), so your fish will be being poisoned, and there is no way of putting that lightly.

A few tips:
Don't panic and don't blame yourself. Yes you should have researched before buying fish, but at the same time I remember when I started keeping fish. I also figured it was as simple as fish + water
And equally it can be quite irritating that shops don't give out the correct advice, or in this case it seems they didn't give any advice.

Don't feed them again until you have a test kit, they'll be fine without food and it'll only add to the ammonia problem.

Don't go back to the shop and be fobbed off with 'bacteria in a bottle'. There is no real evidence to show that they work, and plenty of proof that they dont. The refrigerated ones are sorta half half, but they still don't work often enough that I'd recommend them.
If you can get hold of some mature filter media, or filter gunk (the dirt that builds up on a filter) then this would be great to get your filter started. But don't accept any alternative as they will be a waste of time and money.

If you go back to the shop to return all/most of the fish then don't let them fob you off. We (and you) are correct in saying that they gave you too many fish for an uncycled tank and they also gave you no information on cycling. It can feel daunting telling someone who works in a shop they're wrong, but remember that to them this could just be a job that pays the bills... they don't neccesarily know what they're talking about.

 

[grahamandgem]

Hi there Darkcat,

I am also very new to tropical fishkeeping and have only had my tank for 2 and a half months.

The forum is a great place for advice and everyone is very helpful. What I would say is that I did exactly what you have done. We went out, bought a 95l tank and 3 days later, brought 7 fish home. 2 and a half months on, my tank is fully stocked and 6 of the original 7 fish are still there (one of my zebra danios jumped out of the tank in the middle of the night - despite my tank having a lid - my advice, tape up any gaps around your filter/thermometer/airstone wires!! )

Before I got on the forum, I bought more fish and while I agree a fishless cycle is the best way forward - don't panic. I found it very overwhelming to start with. There were lots of different information sources, lots of opinions but the fish were in and I had to deal with it.... I am not suggesting that this is the best way to do it but this is what we did:

- tested the water every 2 days with API test kit.
- we added ammonia remover (I wouldnt suggest it, it slowed down the cycle)
- we did large water changes almost every day (again, this slowed down the cycle and often
didn't make a difference to ammonia levels)
- we watched our fish - a lot! I am new to this too, but when I lost a rasbora about 6 weeks ago - I could have told you it was going to happen, now when I think their behaviour is a bit off, I do a water change and it seems to do the trick.

All I am saying is, you'll get there, you might lose some fish but we have been really lucky and our tank is now fully stocked and cycled - we survived!!!

So the forum is fab - I lost the plot for a bit and spent my days worrying about the tank - my advice - don't, you are in the situation you are in - go with the flow!

Gem

 

[Curiosity101]

- we added ammonia remover (I wouldnt suggest it, it slowed down the cycle)

^^ No it didn't... unless you used extremely large quantities... Even if you added enough to bind all the free ammonia, as soon as it was all bound the fish are still creating ammonia faster than the bacteria can make it. Ie. no slower cycle.

Edit: Having said that now I think about it I think the particular nitrifying bacteria that grow in our filters can convert ammonium (which is what the 'ammonia removers' convert ammonium to. So even with the removers they can still convert all of the ammonia in the tank.

- we did large water changes almost every day (again, this slowed down the cycle and often
didn't make a difference to ammonia levels)

As with the above point. Even if you completely removed all the water and replace with fresh it wont slow the cycle. Whilst ever the fish are producing ammonia faster than the bacteria can convert it then water changes wont slow the cycle down.

I'm not denying you may have seen lags in your cycle, but they wont have been down to the reasons you posted. Not saying this to correct you, just to avoid any confusion for the OP.

Side note though... as you didn't follow the fishless cycle procedure in the way we recommend, do be ready for the possibility of 'un explained' deaths in the coming months. Unless ammonia + nitrites are kept really low, some sort of long term damage occurs. We often see it were peoples fish seemingly die for no apparent reason a few months after impromptu fish-in cycles.

2nd Edit: To actually make that last paragraph make sense. I really need to proof read!

 

[grahamandgem]

I understand what you are saying

I just got very caught up in worrying about everything to do with the fish, so I guess all I wanted to say was - try not to stress too much - sometimes you end up doing things which don't benefit the fish or the cycle. If you are unsure - always get some advice first - and that is what the forum is good for.


Good luck with it!

 

[Skins]

To cycle a 60l with the fish-in method you'd want to add... 1-2guppys at most (or other non sensitive fish that are 2-3cm max).
Neons (as carlovel said), are VERY sensitive. They aren't normally suitable for new pre cycled tanks, nevermind fish in cycling!
And the honeys really are too big to be cycling a 60l tank with... however if you wanted to do a fish-in cycle (though again I must stress that fishless IS easier), then I suggest returning all the neons and one of the honey gouramis to the store tomorrow.

With the fish in question shorly fishless cycling is the less stressfull(for fish & fishkeeper) route to take hense why suggested in post 2

Skins.

 

[Curiosity101]

With the fish in question shorly fishless cycling is the less stressfull(for fish & fishkeeper) route to take hense why suggested in post 2

That is only our opinion... I can't see that even low amounts of toxins can be justified... but like I said... my opinion. Doesn't change the fact that fish-in cycling exists.

It's really not a case of it being a problem people suggesting fishless cycling. It's a case of not giving all the facts, and people not neccesarily explaining their responses fully.

It's not right to not mention fish-in cycling... or seemingly give any support for the current situation.

 

[Skins]

With the fish in question shorly fishless cycling is the less stressfull(for fish & fishkeeper) route to take hense why suggested in post 2

That is only our opinion... I can't see that even low amounts of toxins can be justified... but like I said... my opinion. Doesn't change the fact that fish-in cycling exists.

It's really not a case of it being a problem people suggesting fishless cycling. It's a case of not giving all the facts, and people not neccesarily explaining their responses fully.

It's not right to not mention fish-in cycling... or seemingly give any support for the current situation.

Yes, fair point Curiosity101 all aspects of cycling should be advised to newbies.

 

[Darkcat]

Thanks for your (rather worrying!) replies! and thanks for all the very useful info.
I have seen so much conflicting information, from the net, books, and even pet shops, that i though it should come to a forum and ask - looks to have been the right decision!

I didnt realise that so few VERY VERY SMALL fish could excrete THAT much ammonia! I do understand the nitrogen cycle and the need to cycle the tank to grow the nececary bacteria. I used some starter culture (whatever you want to call it) from the start to start the bacterial growth, so im hopeing that this will help the situation.
Should i do a daily, say 15L change? Im using "Tetra" water treatment. does this have to be left to "work" on the water before adding it to the tank?

Im going to get a test kit this afternoon, i'll report back later!


Oh - any chance i can get some answers to my original questions?!! D

Thanks again
Peter

 

[Timmy_Bee]

maybe more than 15L for the time being, as your flying blind until you get a test kit.
The trtra water stuff should be ok. there are two ways to dose - either add the right amount to your bucket when doing a water change (no need to leave it to work) or add it to the tank after you have replenised all the water you have changed. BUT if you do the 2nd option, you need to dose for the full 60L instead of the (lets say) 10L bucket you are replacing.... I would recommend option 1. Option 2 is more for people with large tanks that fill them up with a hose etc.

Anyway, i will now have a look at your original questions

 

[Timmy_Bee]

Ok so the questions:
1. water flow - how much water movement do fish actually like? they dont want to be fighting a current all the time obviously....

So long as their not being smashed against the glass, i always think more is better than less...

2. how much of the day should i leave the lights on in the tank?

8 hours? depends on your routine. Having the lights on for less than 4 hours at a time is no help to the plants (im assuming you have live plants - otherwise do whatever you want with the lights) and having them on for more than 10? hours usually means algae growth

3. the pump is creating a good strong ripple on the surface, will the tank require extra airation? and how would i tell?

that should be fine. Fish will 'gasp for air' if there is not enough O2 but as C101 said, that is also a sign on ammonia poisoning...

4. now the fish: The 2 gourami seem rather hyperactive, they are all over the place, is this normal? i was told they tend to be shy and hide a lot. The tetra -one of them seems to be starting fights! again is this normal?

hyperactive sounds good to me. What gourami have you got? dwarf?
And starting fights is usually a teritory thing. i wouldn't worry unless you see injurys

edit: sorry i see you have red honey G's - i havent kept these fish so i am no help on that one

 

[Aqua Tom]

Ok so the questions:
1. water flow - how much water movement do fish actually like? they dont want to be fighting a current all the time obviously....

As long as they arnt getting blown around then they should be fine. Most of the fish we stock come from rivers or lakes & they all have moving water. So the fish are quite happpy to be swimming in a current.

 

[Darkcat]

Ok so the questions:
1. water flow - how much water movement do fish actually like? they dont want to be fighting a current all the time obviously....

As long as they arnt getting blown around then they should be fine. Most of the fish we stock come from rivers or lakes & they all have moving water. So the fish are quite happpy to be swimming in a current.

Ive just been home for lunch, did a 20% water change and altered the angle of the pump output, i must say they seemed to actually enjoy the current, especially the tetra, they sat there fighting it on purpose! I guess its like being on a tread-mill in the house if you cant get out.....

by the way, as its a big amount of water to change, im pre-warming the water to what feels about the same as the tank to avoid big temperature variations, i assume this is good practice? (i have a hot water on demand water heater so its fresh water, not from a immersion heater)