Help with Rams

[ITViking]

Hello. One of the things I've decide to explore that's new to me in the realm of fish keeping is keeping German Blue Rams. At my local ma & pa LFS I purchased what we believe to be both a male & female (suspect female) ram. They are such interesting fish to watch, and I've noticed a few behavior that I'd like to mention, and perhaps get some feedback on.

I should start by saying that I'm not entirely sure the female is actually a female. There's a lot of conflicting and suspect information out there about sexing rams, but the one thing that seems to fairly reliable is that while the males have black patches that are fully black with no iridescent blue showing inside the black patch, the female usually have black side patches where the iridescent blue does encroach on the black patch. That seems to be the case with my rams. However, it's hard to tell on my female as she only displays her black patch periodically.

As for behaviors, I've noticed that any time the male faces the female, her fins go down, and colors bleach out. Whenever the female is on the opposite side of the tank, her black side stripes and face markings tend to come out in a much more bold black. Then when closer to the male again, her black goes away almost completely. Once when the aquarium light had been out for a time, I turned it on suddenly. Despite both rams being fairly close together, both had bold black marks, and for a moment I couldn't tell the male from the female. The male was suddenly more aggressive, I suspect because the 'female' was showing more black than he liked. Then the longer the light was on, the 'females' black colors faded and disappeared, and the male ram calmed down and his aggression faded.

For the most part the two fish swim around together getting along. It's rare to see them apart.

Another reason I'm not sure about the female's sexing is that she lacks the belly color I've read female should have. But then at the LFS, all of the suspect females lacked any color at all, including belly color. Only the males seemed to have colors.

Here's some pictures. Any feedback on sexing would be appreciated.

Female?

Male?

 

[Essjay]

The top photo is possibly a male, looking at the length of the fins, especially the way the anal fin extends beyond the caudal peduncle, and the first few tall rays of the dorsal fin (the one on the back). If it is a male, the other one is the dominant male and the pale one is stressed from being in the same tank.

If it is a female, the male could still be bullying it. These fish need to chose their own mates and just any male and any female may well not get on. It is not unknown for one of an unbonded pair to kill the other. If the pale one is a female which the male does not like, the belly won't be pink due to stress.

 

[ITViking]

The top photo is possibly a male, looking at the length of the fins, especially the way the anal fin extends beyond the caudal peduncle, and the first few tall rays of the dorsal fin (the one on the back). If it is a male, the other one is the dominant male and the pale one is stressed from being in the same tank.

If it is a female, the male could still be bullying it. These fish need to chose their own mates and just any male and any female may well not get on. It is not unknown for one of an unbonded pair to kill the other. If the pale one is a female which the male does not like, the belly won't be pink due to stress.

Thanks! Good to know about the belly not coloring.

My initial thought is to try to solve the issue by adding another suspect female or two, letting the male ram tell me which one is a female that suits his fancy.

Does that sound like a good plan?

 

[Essjay]

If you could find a shop willing to take unwanted females back, I would try 3 or 4 new females. If the male chooses one, take the others back together with the one in the top photo. The risk would be that this one is also a male and you'd get 2 pairs forming - in this case tell the shop so that they could sell them as a bonded pair

 

[ITViking]

Thanks!

I wanted to post a couple of other pictures of the same two fish at feeding time... feeding brine shrimp. Notice the color changes on the suspect 'female'. The black patch on the side is showing, as are more of 'her' black colors in general, but notice that there is clearly blue encroaching on the black patch.

A few 'female' indicators I see are the blue colors showing over the black patch and the back of the fin along the top (dorsal?). It has a rounded curve contour where as the male's is more 'S' shaped.

So I'm wondering... is the interaction between the black patch and the iridescent blue something fixed (solid, static, etc) on the fish by gender genetics, or is it something they can change depending on dominance, etc. In other words, if I lost my current dominant male, and the suspect 'female' was actually a male, would it be able to change the black patch so that the blue no longer shows over it, as per the current dominant male?

 

[Essjay]

Those extended rays at the front of the dorsal fin (the one on the back) say 'male' to me. The fact that the black spot comes and goes indicates a stressed fish.

 

[ITViking]

Those extended rays at the front of the dorsal fin (the one on the back) say 'male' to me. The fact that the black spot comes and goes indicates a stressed fish.

Yea, from what I've read the black color coming and going is an indicator of stress. But I've also read that many of the sexing indicators are themselves not 100% reliable indicators, except the interaction of the black & blue colors in the side patch - which some people say is the only sure way to tell. I'm more focused on the fact that when the black is there, it's under the iridescent blue color on one (suspect female) & the blue is visible over the black as a result, and yet on the male the black patch is solid black with no blue showing over it.

 

[Essjay]

None of the indicators are 100%, including the presence or lack of blue spots in the black patch, I'm afraid. But even if this fish is female, the other one is obviously stressing the pale one in ways we cannot see. Fish communicate with members of their own species by pheromones and even in the absence of physical aggression there can still be chemical aggression.

I think the only way to solve this is to get a few more females and let the male choose - and then return all the other fish to the shop.

 

[ITViking]

You're right, both about the solution, and the black patch indicator. I found that out watching the rams some more today. At one point the male must have been a bit stressed as his black started to mute just a bit. At that point, the blue started showing up inside the black patch.

Here's the same male, but you can see the blue over areas of the muted black side patch.