Help Sick Goldfish

[rubberdoofa]

Hi, I got 5 goldfish for my kids as an aid to help the eldest sleep i look after the fish though,
i have a problem with one of the goldfish i think i know what it is im just unsure of what to do about it as i keep tropicals and what works on them wont for goldfish?,Im pretty sure he has clamped fins.
A fewdays back he was hiding behind rocks his fins where down so i kept aneye on him , he came out on occasion swam fine and all fins errect so thought he was ok, maybe he was just sleeping? but i noticed today that when he came out fromthe rocks his fins are clamped still and hes looking a little wobbly, am i right about the clamped fin diagnosis ? what should i do as all meds i have are for tropicals havent kept goldfish for years so im unsure.was told to cull him by some one in a petshop but i cant do that .dont have the guts for a start thought ide draw apon your vast knowlage as fellow fish keepers and ask for some advice on helping number 5 as hes called to survive and recover.Only had one prob with the tank that was bloody moths geiing in last filter clean i took out 8 manky moths
size of tank is an odd 30gal
weekly water changes of 1/4
temp is fine at 20*
water peramiters are fine all other fish are fine too
fed 2x a day
filtrated and air stones added
Please help its more than my lifes worth not to ask as my kids are autistic and love these fish and they realy work to help them sleep and stay calm its amazing what a few fish can do.

 

[RandomWiktor]

Knowing the variety of goldfish would help in diagnosis. If these are commons, the issue could be as simple as overcrowding, which can lead to bullying of certain fish, or poor water quality. If, on the other hand, you have fancies of some sort, the problem could be of a physiological root, since many fancy species are prone to a variety of genetic disorders thanks to their irregular body shapes. Either way though, I must warn you that even if the tank is properly stocked for their size right now, you will absolutely need a larger tank as they grow; commons should basically be kept in ponds as they'll reach an absolute minimum length of 12in, sometimes even 17-24in, and fancies need 20g for the first fish with an extra 10g per fish after that as they can reach a good 8+in by the end of their 20 year lifespan.
Now, on to diagnosis. I've read at the website of aquarium pharmecueticals that triple sulfa, which can be used on basically all freshwater fish, is a good remedy for clamped fins, though for all we know a broad spectrum antibiotic could just as easily clear it as the cause isn't obvious. Are there any other symptoms aside from lethargy, clamping, and "wobbling?" Any paleness, decrease in apetite, growths, flecks, red streaking in the fins, stringy feces, etc? Have you ever done a round of anti-parasitics on the tank (most goldfish are FULL of 'em)? What additives do you put in your water? (Ie. Dechlor, stress coat, salt, w/e). Do you let your tap water sit overnight to reach tank temperature and help reduce chlorine? Is there any fluctuation in temperature or pH following water changes? Is the pH species-appropriate? Have you seen any excessive chasing or agression?
Also - what do you feed, since you mentioned feeding twice daily (once is more appropriate because of the waste levels they produce)? Goldfish should have a diet consisting of quality pre-soaked pellets, fresh greens, and occasionally small amounts of citrus fruit or green vegetable (ie. cucumber and related veggies). Many people make the mistake of feeding flakes, which are bad for the GI, promote constipation, and may worsen the incidence of swimbladder disease - a common ailment for goldfish.

 

[black angel]

I agree that water quality as well as overcrowding and not enough filtration may be to blame.

Before we can fix the fish we need to fix the water.

You say the water is fine but could you tell us what you hae for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph? I take it the tank has been running for less than six weeks or have you fully cycled it first.

All shop bought fish carry a parasite of one thing or another and the commonest is ich.

I would suggest salting the tank but if the body length of each fish is 2 inches and under then thats not wise.

All meds for tropicals can be used for goldies, but your immediate problem is housing.

 

[rubberdoofa]

ok, seems goldfish have become more complecated since the days my mum kept one in a bowl and did water changes under a running tap,Well i did some more stats;
amonia is 1
nitrate is5.0
ph 7.5
have done another water change and will retake tests when water settles, I cycled the tank or rather thought i had aparently a week isnt long enough so made a right boob up there didnt i, i transfared some filter meduim over from my larger tank and used the gravel i had in another small tank set uo plus some extra. The other fish are fighting fit, the sickly one has no other outward signs other than listless and clamped dorsal fin ( fin at top of body if thats the right word to use) he hides inside the rock but comes out to feed still.
I didnt think ide be overcrowded at all all fish are about 2" the tank has been running for about 6 weeks now had goldfish in it for only a few days i had 3zebra danios in it to begin with (with a heater) i dont know what breed of goldfish tey are , they i guess are the common ones, i use a dechlorinator havent used parasite removal stuff as i wouldnt of thought they would of had any .how would i know if they did and whats best to use? i feed sera flake its for tropicals but im told i still can use for goldfish? and i have used tubifix cubes and cuecumber too.I havent seen any aggression or chasing of any of the fish they swim together like in a shoal very hapily, i cant afford to change there tank right now ive had to repair my ageing car.

 

[RandomWiktor]

Ah, so water quality is the issue. Ammonia at 1ppm is at a degree where it is stressful to the fish, and potentially detrimental to their long term health. The only safe ammonia is no ammonia - 0ppm. I would suggest doing small partial water changes continually until it is safely at 0. Also, by "5" for nitrate, is that mg/L? Most charts I've seen only go by 20's which is why I ask. If it is 50, not 5, that is also a dangerously high value, probably caused by the fecal output and the twice daily feeding. It would be interesting to know nitrIte as well, if you have the value.
Goldfish in an uncycled tank is going to a world of woes. While they are usually hardy enough to survive a cycle, fishless cycling is preferable. There are some great resources on how to properly do it right on this site, so feel free to poke around the FAQ's. Most cycling takes at least two weeks, and to suddenly add 5 goldfish into even a cycled tank would throw it into a new cycle; never underestimate the ammonia producing power of those little 2in fish!
If they are indeed commons, I'm sorry to say that 30g definately won't do (though I'm not saying you need to run out and buy a huge tank right now). For now, they can probably survive well enough with enough water changes and a strong enough filter, but as they grow, they'll either need to be split up in pairs to several large tanks, placed in a pond, or relocated. To give you an idea of how big they get, my commons are only 2 years old, and are each 8in long and growing fast. Considering commons over live to be 20+ years old, they're just babies, and are quite massive. Even in a cycled 75g tank with a filter rated for use in 175g tanks, I still have occasional water quality issues if I am not religious with my cleaning.
As for the flakes, again, they are strongly suggested against for goldfish due to the species being prone to swimbladder disease. A quality goldfish or Koi pellet would do much better for commons, especially when fed with leafy greens, cucumber, and the like. I only pellet mine every 3 days to cut down on waste; the other days is fresh greens and veggies. Pellets should be pre-soaked if possible to prevent swimbladder problems.
Honestly, flakes in general are a poor dietary choice for any fish because they are rough on the digestive system and promote constipation. They are seldom as nutrient-dense as pellets, frozen, and live foods, too. However, if that is what your tropicals are used to, it should be fine; just please consider switching the goldies to something more suitable.

 

[rubberdoofa]

Ah, so water quality is the issue. Ammonia at 1ppm is at a degree where it is stressful to the fish, and potentially detrimental to their long term health. The only safe ammonia is no ammonia - 0ppm. I would suggest doing small partial water changes continually until it is safely at 0. Also, by "5" for nitrate, is that mg/L? Most charts I've seen only go by 20's which is why I ask. If it is 50, not 5, that is also a dangerously high value, probably caused by the fecal output and the twice daily feeding. It would be interesting to know nitrIte as well, if you have the value.
Goldfish in an uncycled tank is going to a world of woes. While they are usually hardy enough to survive a cycle, fishless cycling is preferable. There are some great resources on how to properly do it right on this site, so feel free to poke around the FAQ's. Most cycling takes at least two weeks, and to suddenly add 5 goldfish into even a cycled tank would throw it into a new cycle; never underestimate the ammonia producing power of those little 2in fish!
If they are indeed commons, I'm sorry to say that 30g definately won't do (though I'm not saying you need to run out and buy a huge tank right now). For now, they can probably survive well enough with enough water changes and a strong enough filter, but as they grow, they'll either need to be split up in pairs to several large tanks, placed in a pond, or relocated. To give you an idea of how big they get, my commons are only 2 years old, and are each 8in long and growing fast. Considering commons over live to be 20+ years old, they're just babies, and are quite massive. Even in a cycled 75g tank with a filter rated for use in 175g tanks, I still have occasional water quality issues if I am not religious with my cleaning.
As for the flakes, again, they are strongly suggested against for goldfish due to the species being prone to swimbladder disease. A quality goldfish or Koi pellet would do much better for commons, especially when fed with leafy greens, cucumber, and the like. I only pellet mine every 3 days to cut down on waste; the other days is fresh greens and veggies. Pellets should be pre-soaked if possible to prevent swimbladder problems.
Honestly, flakes in general are a poor dietary choice for any fish because they are rough on the digestive system and promote constipation. They are seldom as nutrient-dense as pellets, frozen, and live foods, too. However, if that is what your tropicals are used to, it should be fine; just please consider switching the goldies to something more suitable.

thanks for that, i feed my tropicals on pellets vegies and sometimes flakes ( used less oftern so thought ide try em on the goldfish) will do a swap to the pellets since thats best for them im just botherd that since they where fed in the shop flake foods from the top will adding sinking pellets make more mess befor they discover they are being fed in a different place? the pellets i use for the tropies go mushy within seconds of hitting the bottom dont think i could presoak those? My filter may be inadiquate too, but wouldnt a stronger filter mean they would be tossed about roughly? I have a master test kit the nitrate test goes up to 160 the teast i did befor was 5.0 and not 50 jezzz if it where that ide of died myself let alont the fish lol, can i get an amonia reducer liquid to help out ( if ther is one) .
water stats now are
nitrate 0
nitrite 0 (as requested)
and amonia is about the same 1.0 still there is a slight difference in the yellow of the test result its not quite 1 and its not quite 0.5 either.
i have done a water changes too
i will locate another filter

 

[RandomWiktor]

Goldfish handle current well; you shouldn't have to worry about it tossing them. A stronger filter, or your origional filter plus another of similar strength, should do well by them.
As for the question of using an ammonia reducer, I would strongly advise against it. They tend to leech oxygen from the water, and goldfish have high oxygen needs; it may just stress them further. What's more, such products eliminate the symptom but not the problem; the ammonia should not be getting that high, so there is either a filtration issue, or a need for more frequent cleaning.

 

[rubberdoofa]

Goldfish handle current well; you shouldn't have to worry about it tossing them. A stronger filter, or your origional filter plus another of similar strength, should do well by them.
As for the question of using an ammonia reducer, I would strongly advise against it. They tend to leech oxygen from the water, and goldfish have high oxygen needs; it may just stress them further. What's more, such products eliminate the symptom but not the problem; the ammonia should not be getting that high, so there is either a filtration issue, or a need for more frequent cleaning.

More cleaning? isnt once a week enough iyo? I have put in another filter the original one i got with the tank ( second hand so i havent a clue what its capabilities are )i baught a new one myself as that filter sounded like a toilet cistern filling up, i think number 5 is on his way out i have taken him out of the tank and placed him in another small tank on his own ( my fry set up) i have noticed some white stuff on his scales behind the dorsal fin so maybe he was comming down with white spot or something , as im not an experienced Goldie keeper i can use all the advice i can get I have some white spot stuff some where do you suggest i treat the whole tank since number 5 may have it or does the rule of tropies still apply for not treating the rest if no symptoms?I dont want the others to get sick too.
i think x-lucy-fish-x says it all when she quotes we are not fish keepers but water keepers , look after the water and you look after the fish.

 

[RandomWiktor]

With the two filters, weekly WC's may be enough, but until you find a schedule that gets the ammonia under control, I suggest doing partials twice weekly, more if needed, with very thorough gravel vaccuming. If the ammonia is at 1ppm, once weekly was definately not enough. I know many members on this site who do WC's twice weekly because of the large amounts of waste produced by older fish, so it isn't as unreasonable as it sounds. Goldies are such evil little poop monsters.
As for the "white stuff," is it flecks, slime, or 'cotton'? Flecks and slime are both symptoms of protozoal parasites, which basically all fish coming from pet stores have. It would probably be safe to medicate the whole tank (though read the label very carefully) as you can bet your bippy that if one is showing symptoms, it will only be a matter of time before everyone is. However, if it is fuzz, you could be dealing with a more serious illness, so a descript. of the white area would be great.

 

[rubberdoofa]

right, hes still alive, the white stuff is just on his back right side of the dorsal fin its not woolly and long with out showing you i guess its difficult to diagnose but ive seen the white cotton wool growths befor and its not that and it dont really look like white spot as thats just as it discribes .white spots! this it a patch of white its not prominant and dont stand off the fish i have never seen slime befor so im wondering if its that? hes also looking a little emaciated Parasites ugh what a thought but as you say if one has it then all of them will no doubt so what do you recomend, iam writting up a regime ( i work nights and days alternate so sometimes my head isnt with it i need reminders ) oh befor i go to work ide better ask this, i want to plant this tank out im told goldies distroy plants whats best for them the lighting isnt fab just one arcadia tube for plant growth (came with tank) i know swords dont mind low light but they are tropies dont think theyd survive.

 

[RandomWiktor]

The goldfish losing weight does not have sunken eyes or a bent spine, right? Just want to rule out anything more serious.
Protozoal infections often manifest themselves as a thin, slimy-looking white or grey-white layer on the fish. As you mentioned, they look nothing like columnaris (cotton wool disease), but also look nothing like Ich. Protozoals are usually treatable with something like CureIch, though other broad-spectrum treatments like General Cure will tackle internal and external parasites. Adding aquarium salt helps, but it would have to be a very gradual addition, as goldfish of that size are sensitive. I know black angel has some good advice on how to slowly and safely add salt; for my big guys, I add it over the course of a several hours, one tbsp at a time, but they're in a big 75g tank, so you'd need to add a smaller dose at a time I reckon. The rule of thumb for aquarium salt is 1 tbsp/5g, so for you, about 6 tbsp. Maybe if you added it 1/2 tbsp at a time over the course of the day it'd be safe? I'd wait for black angel's feedback as I've never had to salt young goldies.
As for planting, I guess you're asking the wrong person; I tried that for about a day, and after about 30 bucks worth of plants got devoured, opted to use all soft-plastic plants. I found issues with silk plants fraying from the goldies' continual munch-attacks. Perhaps you could find advice on the planted tanks section of the forum.

 

[rubberdoofa]

ok so im to add a little salt slowly, and on dark angels instructions, im to get some medication .treat the whole tank or just number 5 in the little tank? as for the plants well ive had silk plants in my large tank and didnt get on with them i have live ones now and added a pressureized co2 system i got an aqua jungle now I think its the Protozoal infection as you mentioned. best go to work now or im gonna be late argh

 

[rubberdoofa]

ok so im to add a little salt slowly, and on dark angels instructions, im to get some medication .treat the whole tank or just number 5 in the little tank? as for the plants well ive had silk plants in my large tank and didnt get on with them i have live ones now and added a pressureized co2 system i got an aqua jungle now I think its the Protozoal infection as you mentioned. best go to work now or im gonna be late argh

Hello again, sorry havent been back tothis but i had a major epileptic seisure and lost it compleatly still feeling rotton but need to get back to my fishies asap,
as for an update on the goldies number 5 died but all others are fit and well i havent added salt to the tank as i didnt mannage to get hold of darkangel befor i became unwell.
water stats are:
nitrate 0
nitrite0
and amonia is a wacking 4
i know thats not good which is why im doing a total water change or is a total water change a bad idea? should i just do a 3/4
i need all the assistance i can get to be honnest as my head still isnt with it i keep blanking off everyso oftern havent had a siezure in 6 yrs so im a tad depressed as im likely to loose my drivers licence my job and alot of other things im used to now including my fish if im not carefull.
thank you for the help ive had so far with my goldies ive tryed to re read over them but things ate making much sence as yet almost wish i knew of some one close enough to come and help me out but hey nowt in life is simple and i guess it will all come back to me once i get stuck in .

 

[black angel]

So you still have 4 healthy common goldfish?

Please dont feed tubifex unless you know the source. Most companies get them from sewerage and these contain protozoan parsites that can wipe out a tank in a few months.
4 commons are still overcrowding and for a 30 gallon you really can only have 2 at that size but as they grow they are going to need nearer 40 gallon and then 20 for each one.

As for filtration, yes goldies need it but they need calm spots in the tank so they can relax and sleep in.

When cleaning out your filter rinse and squeeze the media in old tank water. How do you do water changes? A gravel cleaner is always useful for goldfish.


As you have high ammonia do you know if the tank has previously cycled ? You shouldnt be afraid to do large water changes as and when needed and 75% may be needed to get your ammonia either to 0 in a cycled tank or below 1 if it isnt. Nitrites follow ammonia spikes so look out for those as well.
If your tank has cycled then it may be your filter isnt capable of keeping up with ammonia being produced or you have let water changes go.

I wish you as well a speedy recovery.

 

[rubberdoofa]

So you still have 4 healthy common goldfish?

Please dont feed tubifex unless you know the source. Most companies get them from sewerage and these contain protozoan parsites that can wipe out a tank in a few months.
4 commons are still overcrowding and for a 30 gallon you really can only have 2 at that size but as they grow they are going to need nearer 40 gallon and then 20 for each one.

As for filtration, yes goldies need it but they need calm spots in the tank so they can relax and sleep in.

When cleaning out your filter rinse and squeeze the media in old tank water. How do you do water changes? A gravel cleaner is always useful for goldfish.


As you have high ammonia do you know if the tank has previously cycled ? You shouldnt be afraid to do large water changes as and when needed and 75% may be needed to get your ammonia either to 0 in a cycled tank or below 1 if it isnt. Nitrites follow ammonia spikes so look out for those as well.
If your tank has cycled then it may be your filter isnt capable of keeping up with ammonia being produced or you have let water changes go.
I wish you as well a speedy recovery.


yes im afraid i let the water changes go, but wasnt well enough to wield a bucket now as im sorta back on my feet its time to get stuck in,I couldnt resist a bargain yesterday (retail therapy )
i have a rekord 96 for them now not bad for a £10 full working order and no scratches or ugly bits i know its still not big enough but its better untill i can locate or should i say afford a larger one. Back to the fish,
well i think they are feeling the effects of the amonia although they are still swimming about vigorusly feeding well this morning they look a little wobbly tonight when i get home and after my daughters 5th birthday party( ive finnished scraping jelly from places i thought it could never get ) Im going to set it up i have replacement filter sponges for my big tank so im going to cut the old ones down to size and use those in the 96 i was told to ask black angel about adding salt to assist the other fish in recovery what are your thought on that? and how should i add it? anything else i should or recomend i do?
thankyou for your kind words