Help! Gold rams, ich??

[Colin_T]

he told me all the stores tanks are lightly dosed with ich x and it’s harmless to my other fish in my tank.. he recommended I give it a try. I decided to get the ich x but I only put in a half dose..

Any petshop that uses low levels of chemicals in their tanks needs to get their act together and stop treating unless they need to. Adding low levels of chemicals to an aquarium creates drug resistant diseases and junky fish. And that is not a joke. Fish living in tanks with low levels of medications can have serious immune/ health problems (including withdrawal symptoms) when put into clean water without medications, and they become more prone to diseases while their bodies adapt to the chemical free water. They are also more likely to become sterile and develop cancer because of the prolonged exposure to known carcinogens like formaldehyde and malachite green.

As for drug resistant diseases, there are plenty of them in fish tanks and on land, and these affect all sorts of birds, fish and animals. Medications/ chemicals should only be added to an aquarium if there is a problem. And they should be used at the appropriate dose so the disease they are treating is cured completely. Chemicals/ treatments should not be added prophylactically in an attempt to prevent diseases because it does not work.

Sorry if that sounds like me abusing them but a good petshop should not be treating any fish or tank, unless the fish are sick.

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Anyway, the medication will kill the parasites so the heat treatment is not necessary now. Heat is an option to treat Ich without chemicals. Since you have added medication, you can probably lower the temperature a couple of degrees to 28C (82F). this will make it easier on the fish.
Keep the medication in the water for 1 week and then water change it out.

The Ich X, has formaldehyde, methanol (alchohol) and malachite green in and will kill any protozoans like whitespot, costia, chilodonella & trichodina. Your fish only have whitespot, the others listed are just examples of protozoan parasites that affect fish.

*NB* Malachite green is quite toxic so wash your hands well with soapy water after working in the tank or handling the medication.

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The reason the fish get more white spots on them is because there are whitespot cysts hatching in the gravel, and these release 100s of new parasites when they do hatch. The parasites swim around the tank looking for a host to attach to and then after about a day on the fish they develop the typical white spot.

The medication or heat treatment kills the parasite during the free swimming stage before the parasites attach to a fish. However, it can take up to a week before all the parasite cysts have hatched, but usually 3-4 days depending on temperature. In warm water they develop and hatch faster so you get more parasites appearing suddenly. Then they suddenly stop appearing and the remaining white spots on the fish fall off and start dividing in the substrate. When the last cysts hatch the parasites are killed by medication or heat before they can attach to the fish and the parasite's lifecycle is broken.

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As for the graze on his noggin, just monitor that and if it goes white and fluffy it has developed fungus. If it turns red and looks inflamed, then it is bacterial. However, a healthy fish in clean water should heal up without any problems, and you have formaldehyde in the water that will kill a lot of microscopic organisms.

 

[Deedo]

Wow, thank you. Makes sense.. I spoke to the guy at the pet store about medicating like that and he said it’s only done because there’s new fish constantly being added to the aquariums and it’s preventative.. Nonetheless the ich x is the only medication I’ve found safe for inverts, corys, etc so I think it’s a good choice for what i have going on. I put in a half dose yesterday evening and a half dose this morning.. temp is at 84 currently. Both rams are still eating and active, still have color to them.. just waiting for those damn spots to fall off. As for the thing on the male’s head I’ll keep an eye and hope it cures itself in the mean time


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[Byron]

I tend to stay out of disease issues, but I have had experience a few times with ich so I will offer some advice here, as there are some problems.

First off, I completely agree with the first two paragraphs in Colin's post #31. Totally.

Second, the ich x is not a good medication to use on cories, characins (tetras, pencils, hatchets), loaches, rasboras, and some others. The chemical ingredients are not safe. The best treatment for ich and related external parasites is aquarium salt and (usually) heat. I got this from Dr. Neale Monks, and followed his advice twice with no fish losses and success.

 

[Deedo]

I tend to stay out of disease issues, but I have had experience a few times with ich so I will offer some advice here, as there are some problems.

First off, I completely agree with the first two paragraphs in Colin's post #31. Totally.

Second, the ich x is not a good medication to use on cories, characins (tetras, pencils, hatchets), loaches, rasboras, and some others. The chemical ingredients are not safe. The best treatment for ich and related external parasites is aquarium salt and (usually) heat. I got this from Dr. Neale Monks, and followed his advice twice with no fish losses and success.

Right but salt isn’t safe for snails and corys I thought?


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[Byron]

Right but salt isn’t safe for snails and corys I thought?

It is much safer than formaldehyde and malachite green. I too always said "no salt" with cories, loaches and characins, but Neale Monks convinced me otherwise, and he knows. I've used it twice with wild-caught cories, loaches and characins in two separate tanks and never lost a fish, and saw no signs of stress during treatment. It must be aquarium salt or plain sea salt (no additives), not table salt or marine salt mix or rift lake salt mix which all contain other minerals. Pure sodium chloride. API Aquarium salt is what I used. I can explain the process if asked.

I have pond snails and Malaysian Livebearing Snails, and the treatments did not eradicate them by any means, though it might of reduced their numbers a tad, hard to tell. But curing the fish if this is needed is more important than snails. Plants can be set back too, but will with the malachite green anyway.

 

[Deedo]

It is much safer than formaldehyde and malachite green. I too always said "no salt" with cories, loaches and characins, but Neale Monks convinced me otherwise, and he knows. I've used it twice with wild-caught cories, loaches and characins in two separate tanks and never lost a fish, and saw no signs of stress during treatment. It must be aquarium salt or plain sea salt (no additives), not table salt or marine salt mix or rift lake salt mix which all contain other minerals. Pure sodium chloride. API Aquarium salt is what I used. I can explain the process if asked.

I have pond snails and Malaysian Livebearing Snails, and the treatments did not eradicate them by any means, though it might of reduced their numbers a tad, hard to tell. But curing the fish if this is needed is more important than snails. Plants can be set back too, but will with the malachite green anyway.

The only reason I’m skeptical is because I’ve almost lost my snail because of aquarium salt in the past and I do NOT want to lose him. He’s honestly my favorite in the tank. Not that I want to lose my rams either. I’m going to proceed with caution and hope all ends well


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[Deedo]

UPDATE:

This one is much better than the last. It’s been a few days using half dose ich x and monitoring all my fish closely. All are well and as of this morning my female ram has no more spots and my male only has 3! First picture is my female, she’s been hanging out in the cave a lot and second is my male- the 2 spots on the right side of him are actually on his fin- also gives you a sneak peak atmy balloon molly and one of my corys

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[Colin_T]

The fish have fewer spots now because the parasites have dropped off the fish and are multiplying in the gravel. In a few days the whitespot cysts will hatch and the medication should kill them when they do. If the fish get more white spots in a few days, then the medication is not strong enough. But Malachite Green and Formaldehyde are quite effective at killing things even at low levels.

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The fish in the bottom picture appears to have a white top lip, on its mouth. Is that normal or has the fish developed that recently?

 

[Deedo]

The fish have fewer spots now because the parasites have dropped off the fish and are multiplying in the gravel. In a few days the whitespot cysts will hatch and the medication should kill them when they do. If the fish get more white spots in a few days, then the medication is not strong enough. But Malachite Green and Formaldehyde are quite effective at killing things even at low levels.

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The fish in the bottom picture appears to have a white top lip, on its mouth. Is that normal or has the fish developed that recently?

He’s had it since I’ve gotten him, which is about 3 weeks ago. Also I’m planning on doing a water change/gravel vac in a day or two


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[Colin_T]

If the fish has had the white top lip since you got him then that is fine

Make sure you re-treat the tank after doing the water change.

 

[Deedo]

So as much as my rams are being more active today than they’ve been in a while, and even eating more.. I’ve noticed small red marks now.. only one on the female, two on the male.. should I be concerned? What are they? Does ich x help with it also? ‍

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[Colin_T]

The red marks could be from physical damage if the fish scratched themselves on rocks or an object in the tank. The red marks are not linked to whitespot.

Formaldehyde (which is in the ich x medication) should prevent any bacterial or fungal infections and Malachite Green will kill any protozoans in the water, so they should heal up without any problems. But monitor them and if it gets worse then post new pics. But they should be ok

 

[Deedo]

The red marks could be from physical damage if the fish scratched themselves on rocks or an object in the tank. The red marks are not linked to whitespot.

Formaldehyde (which is in the ich x medication) should prevent any bacterial or fungal infections and Malachite Green will kill any protozoans in the water, so they should heal up without any problems. But monitor them and if it gets worse then post new pics. But they should be ok

Wha a relief! Thank you


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[Deedo]

Oh no( I’m sad to say one of my rams died just now.. the one who looked better of the two. I literally took a video of him this morning because of how good he looked.. I did a 20% water change today, remedicated with a half dose of ich x as recommended. Did the water change shock him? I can’t believe this. And strangely enough a curvicep I had in the past died the same way.. he had a slight case of ich (I didn’t medicate that time though) and when it happened he was freaking out doing flips in the water and then just laid on his side and passed.. I don’t get it. Very bizarre. So bummed right now [emoji20] this is a screenshot from the video this morning. Right now my other ram started flashing off the cave I have in the tank.. little twitchy. I hope the same thing doesn’t happen to her she seems to be breathing a little fast

*Sidenote- this was the second day both my rams had no ich spots on them. Looked completely fine

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[Colin_T]

If you didn't treat the curviceps cichlid previously, then the whitespot would have killed it.

I doubt the gold ram died from the water change, but more likely it died from an overdose of medication. Although an overdose should knock the Cories and other fishes around too.

When you do a water change during treatment, it is a good idea to do a big water change (75-90%). This removes most of the old medication and means there is less chance of overdosing the next dose.

To work out the volume of water in the tank:
measure length x width x height in cm.
divide by 1000.
= volume in litres.

You can use the "Calculator" in the "How To Tips" at the top of the page to convert litres into US or UK gallons.

When you measure the height, measure from the top of the gravel to the top of the water level.

Remove any big rocks or ornaments when you measure the height because these will displace some water.

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Heavy breathing can be chemical poisoning or whitespots on the gills, but since there are no new spots on the body and there has been medication in the tank for a few days, it is unlikely to be whitespots on the gills.

Rubbing on objects can be whitespot or chemicals too.

You have 2 choices, either leave the tank for now and monitor the fish, or do another water change. Personally, I would do another water change, but a really big one (about 80-90%). Make sure the new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before you add it to the tank. Fill the fish bucket with water, add dechlorinator and aerate for 30 minutes or so if possible. When the tank is full then retreat.

Run the tap for a minute before collecting tap water. And use a fish only bucket.

Make sure you don't have carbon in the filter if using medications because it will absorb the medication.