Had To Put Sick Fish In Uncycled Tank!

[lotus3]

I had a Jack Dempsey in a 45g with 1 other fish (firemouth) A few days ago I noticed the Dempsey starting to develop a purplish-red line across it's lower body. I had NO idea what it was, checked the water paramaters, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 10. The tank has been setup for 5 years, I do 10% water changes every week. I have been keeping fish for nearly 30 yrs, luckily had very little experience with illness (except for a couple bouts of ich and some fin and tail rot, quickly cleared with melafix)  Today the Dempsey seemed so much worse (swollen belly and red gills, listlessly laying near surface, so still I thought he  was dead) Before this even started my lovely grandchildren cracked my QT tank while playing, I got another 20g, but didn't even set it up (this was only a few days ago) so I was desperately searching for info on how to try and save this fish, I came across an article that said a QT tank didn't have to be cycled because most medications (if needed) will kill off the beneficial bacteria anyway, regardless of their saying it won't, and if no meds are used then daily partial water changes will help protect the fish. Not sure I exactly agree with this knowing what I know about the nitrogen cycle, but I knew if I did nothing the fish would surely die. So I set up the new QT tank, dechlorinated the water, used some old tank water (not the same he came out of, just in case) and part of the old filter media. The Dempsey is so much better, it's almost unbelievable, given my test results from the water he came out of, I ran the test again and got the same results- the test kit (API master) is not expired (i bought it about 3 mos. ago, it says exp. date 11-16) AND the Firemouth in that tank is fine... so I'm really confused- but what I'm really worried about, is what do I do to keep this Dempsey safe in this uncycled tank? Besides the daily water changes (how much?) what else can I do? I also read an article about daily water changes not allowing the bacteria to establish themselves? How can I keep the toxic ammonia/nitrite levels down Please help, I want to save my Jack! Thanks for advice.

 

[Blubble37]

Forget the articles, they're generally written by the companies that make the products. Whilst some meds will annihalate everything in sight, most are not harmless to the bacteria, the bacteria establish in the filter, not the open water so water changes really dont affect them a great deal. Daily water changes of 70-90%, replaced with conditioned water at about the same temperature will do no harm at all if they are needed
 
It'd really help if you could tell me a few things:
 
QT tank size
Filtration
Meds and type (if any)
And if you could do a current tank test, that'd be great, post full results, pH and all
 
 
 
By the sounds of it, you're using some pre-cycled media? If so, you wont notice any huge spikes, it's already full of bacteria if it's come from another cycled tank, therefore it'll likely have the guts to deal with one fish, albeit not a small one.
 
If your tests come back 0ammonia 0nitrite 0-100nitrate every time, then you wont really need to change the water, 10 or 20% a week or at the end of a medication run to clear the water out. Anything above 0 ammonia warrants a 50% change and above 0.25 ammonia neccecitates a 70-90% change to bring it back down.
 
Incase i've made you confused, which seems to be a habit of mine when explaining things-
 
Because you're running old media in the tank, you're unlikely to see huge amounts of ammonia. If the tests come back 0 0 0-100 then you're fine, 20% a week or thereabouts, if above 0 ammonia, 50% change straight away to bring it down, if above 0.25 ammonia, 70-90% change straight away
 
Good luck, keep us posted on how it's doing

 

[star4]

If you are not running a filter, then add an airline for extra oxygen in the tank. Daily water changes will be fine in an uncycled tank. Once the JD seems lots better, you can add water from his old tank and monitor his reactions. If the old tank stats are fine and the firemouth is fine it could be just a bacterial infection that has hit the JD.

 

[Blubble37]

...set up the new QT tank, dechlorinated the water, used some old tank water (not the same he came out of, just in case) and part of the old filter media....

Lotus is using a filter

 

[lotus3]

Thank you so much for replying, I was really worried about poor Jack. He's swimming about normally this morning, the swelling is way down, though he still has the redness. The QT tank is only 20g, (he's 5") The filter is a new old technology  aquology power 1 (akin to the Supreme Aquaking line by Danner if you're old enough to remember them Media is just 1/2 new filter floss and 1/2 old floss from cycled tank- no charcoal in case I have to medicate- I just ran a test and the results are holding at 0ammonia,0 nitrite, and 0 nitrate?? Why is that??? pH is 7.2 , no meds yet and I really don't want to use them if I don't have to, especially as I am unsure what is wrong! If it is a bacterial infection how come he perked up almost immediately (after initial transfer shock to QT tank) In other words, being in fresh water seemed to do the trick but the tank water he was in tested fine ??? I don't understand, but like I said, haven't had much experience with illness in fish, so I defer to your knowledge and am grateful for your advice.

 

[Blubble37]

dont complain if the ammonia and nitrite is holding low, that's a good thing, the floss is probably capable of supporting him.
 
Your other tank may have high nitrate levels or something else in the water he doesnt like.. try doing 2 60% water changes and see if he minds being re-added. If he droops off again then we're back to square one, but if he's alright then there's something in the tank, dissolving into the water that he doesnt like

 

[eaglesaquarium]

You brought old media into the tank, so the bacteria are taking care of the ammonia and nitrite.   I don't trust the nitrate test... usually gives false lows.  Old test kits especially.   You need to shake and shake and shake before you even start the testing process...
 
As long as the ammonia and nitrite stay at zero, don't worry.  The nitrate is not a concern.  But, in that size tank, you'll want to increase the water changes, since it isn't really suitable for the JD long term.

 

[lotus3]

I also have the option of putting a cycled sponge filter in the QT tank. Will that help too?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I am one of those who states an H tank should not be cycled. I have posted this several times on this site with explanations. While many meds will not harm the bacteria, some will and do.
 
But lets inject a little common sense here. In the wild fish are usually protected by constantly changing water. A perfect example of this would be a high tech planted tank where one must inject CO2 for the plants. But these plants are able to grow fine in the wild without co2 injection. The reason is the co2 removed is replaced by "new" water full of more co2. If the tank were getting pretty regular water change to bring in fresh co2, the injection would not be needed.
 
Well it is similar for ammonia etc. If you do daily water changes and well as a daily vacuuming, you can keep the water pretty much safe. Moreover, there are a variety of ammonia detoxifiers out there should an emergency actually arise. And ammonia does require some time to show up to where it reads on a kit.
 
Lets use a it of logic here. the fish went into the tank with "floss". A day later there is 0/0/0. But the fish is certainly creating some ammonia. So if the floss is providing cycling bacteria, where is the nitrate? While that kit may be inaccurate on the absolute level, it does detect nitrate. So we know ammonia is being created, it is not being read nor are the other two compounds. So where is the ammonia? One other consideration is the dechlor being used, does it contain an ammonia detoxifier?
 
The amount of useful bacteria in used filter floss is minimal. The bacteria need places to live where there is a constant flow of needed nutrients. Good flow through is the key. Floss filled with the gunk it is supposed to trap doesn't not meet this standard. I have been replacing the floss in about 25 filters weekly for 10 years now and never have cycling issues. I am too lazy to clean floss and can afford to spend the money to make it disposable.
 
If you are that worried about ammonia, then you can throw some stem plants into the H tank to float on the surface. They will help suck up ammonia that might not be handled by daily water changes.
 
As to big water changes not affecting the bacteria because they live attached to objects defies common sense. It is one thing to change water weekly, it is another to do so daily. The bacteria need ammonia and nitrite to thrive. Keep doing huge daily water changes and they are deprived of these things to a decent extent. Deprived means they do not survive in the same numbers. Moreover, if you are medicating a tank, water changes remove meds which then must be replaced. The more water you change and the more often, the more costly medicating can get.
 
In most cases fish will be pooping and some food may go uneaten. One needs to vacuum this stuff out daily or even more often, so right there you are doing some amount of water changing. Add to this the fact that a sick fish is much less active and therefore will produce less ammonia than usual. As for the fish perking up some a bit of this may be due to reduced stress. When a fish is ill or injured it tends to hide. It is not able to hold its own against anything. By moving it to an H tank this threat is removed and reduce the strss level of the fish. Stress is a major contributor to weakening the immune systems of fish. Towards that end i have also found that providing the fish with some cover in an H tank is often helpful. I heave a few plastic plants amd rocks I use. Not enough to make it hard to observe but enough to make the fish feel more "comfortable."
 
The worst outcome in an H tank is we fail to nail down the problem and the fish dies. At this point anything in the H tank must be assumed to harbor whatever killed the fish and needs to be sterilized or thrown out. Plastic plants and rocks can be cleaned, bacteria cannot.
 
Lastly, sick fish may have trouble with current and also usually need additional oxygen supplied to the tank, especially at elevated temps.. For this reason I prefer air driven filtration in H tanks. Lower flow and helping with O are accomplished this way. I have tons of excess sponges so I use sponge filters and if the fish doesn't make I chuck out the foam. However, one can use an airstone that can be sterilized for reuse.
 
All of the above is how I do things in terms of an H tank. It is not the only way. While I see little reason for the cycle in an H tank, I see little chance of using cycled media creating a problem. The downside would be the bacteria dies off  because of meds and creates waste as it degrades making more ammonia rather than removing it. All that matters in the end is that the H tank be free of harmful things and conducive to recovery.
 
Keep testing the tank for ammonia daily if you are worried. It is better to be safe. If I am right that the floss has little bacteria, you will see that in the absence of daily water changes and/or some floating plants, as ammonia would start to build up. If I am wrong about the floss, and you are not doing dailies, then you should not see ammonia or nitrite but you should see some sign of nitrate.
 
In either case monitor the fish for eating and pooping. If it is pooping, make sure the poop looks close to normal. Watch for worms. Sometimes fish get constipated but they also can get bacterial infections that cause secondary problems or have worms or parasites that cause such problems. Also, you do not need a light on the tank and a darker setting should be better for the fish, but you also need to be able to see everything very clearly, so you may want a light that is only on when you are checking for poop and fish symptoms.
 
Good luck with it.

 

[rms]

Would it be a good idea to have no filtration in a hospital tank, which would remove the stress of water currant? To solve the problem of ammonia and nitrite without a filter would an ammonia detoxifier work on it's own? Without the presence of a filter, would bacteria still exist in the tank in high enough numbers, and if so would that bacteria still convert ammonia to nitrite in harmful amounts, even if the ammonia was detoxified? If the answer to these questions is yes, yes, no respectively would that method work and reduce the amount of water changes needed and provide a good level of care?
 
I haven't had to run a hospital as yet, and wondering if this could work for lotus3, or anyone else for that matter...

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I am one of those who states an H tank should not be cycled. I have posted this several times on this site with explanations. While many meds will not harm the bacteria, some will and do.
 
But lets inject a little common sense here. In the wild fish are usually protected by constantly changing water. A perfect example of this would be a high tech planted tank where one must inject CO2 for the plants. But these plants are able to grow fine in the wild without co2 injection. The reason is the co2 removed is replaced by "new" water full of more co2. If the tank were getting pretty regular water change to bring in fresh co2, the injection would not be needed.
 
Well it is similar for ammonia etc. If you do daily water changes and well as a daily vacuuming, you can keep the water pretty much safe. Moreover, there are a variety of ammonia detoxifiers out there should an emergency actually arise. And ammonia does require some time to show up to where it reads on a kit.

 
That's a bit of a logical fallacy though TTA... the ammonia in the river is dealt with by the current in a different way than you are discussing.  The ammonia from the fish nearby is removed by the movement from the river downstream, but it is replaced by ammonia from upstream as well.. 
 
But, as has been pointed out constantly around these parts, the bacteria thrive anywhere that has a surface available for them to sit on, and for the ammonia, carbon and oxygen delivered to them for them to thrive.  The river brings them fresh water (with ammonia in it, from upstream), with the oxygen and carbon...  So, the river has all the needs for the bacteria, just our filters.  
 
I agree with the bare bottom substrate... but we should always use a cycled filter on the QT whenever possible.  MOST ailments are not caused by gram positive bacteria, so if you are treating parasites, fungus, or gram negative bacterial infections, the bacteria in the filter should be just fine... or at least fine enough to provide some benefit - allowing more time before the ammonia builds up between water changes. 
 
Just my two cents...
 
But, its better to treat a singly sick fish in a QT, cycled or not, than to try to treat the main tank.  THat said, some illnesses infect the tank, not just the fish - like ich.

Would it be a good idea to have no filtration in a hospital tank, which would remove the stress of water currant? To solve the problem of ammonia and nitrite without a filter would an ammonia detoxifier work on it's own? Without the presence of a filter, would bacteria still exist in the tank in high enough numbers, and if so would that bacteria still convert ammonia to nitrite in harmful amounts, even if the ammonia was detoxified? If the answer to these questions is yes, yes, no respectively would that method work and reduce the amount of water changes needed and provide a good level of care?
 
I haven't had to run a hospital as yet, and wondering if this could work for lotus3, or anyone else for that matter...

 
 
Best to use a sponge filter... low current, low enough to be safe for fry... but still sufficient flow to keep ammonia at bay. 

 

[rms]

 

 

 
 
Best to use a sponge filter... low current, low enough to be safe for fry... but still sufficient flow to keep ammonia at bay. 
 
But if meds kill bacteria (in some cases) would there be any point in running cycled media? Crucially, does detoxified ammonia still convert to nitrite if there is no filter present?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

A few points:
 
1 - few of the ailments require treatment that affects the filter bacteria  (anti-parasite, anti-fungal and anti-bacterial... for gram negative won't affect the filter bacs.. although some will if used in too high a dose).
 
2 - even if it does, best to have the bacteria for as long as possible
 
3 - detoxifying agents don't convert the ammonia to nitrite.  they generally just tie it up for a period of time (but I prefer not to add extra chemicals to a QT than is necessary - would prefer to just complete water changes for the occassions that I use either a broad spectrum or gram positive killing meds. 
 
 
A sick fish and using a QT is a 'worse case scenario', so the have to make the best of it that you can.  Any stress you can minimize, the better - that includes ammonium (which is the less toxic form).  I want the absolute least amount of stressors that I can have.

 

[rms]

I totally agree on causing least amount of stress. I'm aware that I come across as challenging, but I'm just looking for answers to questions that pop into my head.
 
My question is not about detoxifying agents converting ammonia to nitrite. I but more does ammonium convert to nitrite if there is no filter? In fact, does ammonium convert to nitrite at all? If ammonia is detoxified is there something taken away that's fundamental in the nitrogen cycle? I honestly don't know....
 
If there is no flow, pushing water through a filter, would that reduce/stop the nitrite being produced? Would it stop it completely from being converted to nitrite if there were no filter or substrate or anything else that bacteria would normally grow on.
 
If the ammonia is detoxified then surely higher amounts of it can be tollerated by the fish and only occasional water changes would be needed, thus decreasing the need to top up medication and keeping it at consistant levels (this can only benefit the fish in terms of a consistant strength of medication fighting the ailment). In terms of causing minimal stress, less frequent water changes would go a long way for that cause surely.
 
I don't have the benefit of experience with this, but as I said, it's just an idea that popped into my head and it seems to make sense. I've had ideas on things before and been given solid explanations as to why they wouldn't work. Just looking for that now with this. 

 

[eaglesaquarium]

No problem...  questioning things is how we learn it.
 
Generally, I think the ammonia 'detoxifiers' just means that the ammonia is converted temporarily into ammonium.  That's not to say that it is removed or not still a stressor.  Ammonium is still a toxin, just at a far less lethal level, although extensive exposure to it is still potentially fatal. 
 
As far as the nitrite conversion, the bacteria that convert the ammonia to nitrite convert the ammonia, not the ammonium.  But, once the ammonia is used up the pH and temp of the water dictates that some of the ammonium is converted to ammonia.  This process happens nearly immediately.  Ultimately, if the bacteria are dead... there will be no conversion either.  If the bacteria aren't killed by the meds, then wouldn't it just be better to have the bacteria deal with the whole problem?
 
So, this discussion is only for a small subset of medications that you have to worry about with this... the ones that affect gram positive bacteria.