Guppy Appears Vertical

[nehpets81]

Grrr... On friday night I happened to mention that I have never lost a fish after starting fishkeeping back in the Spring. I should have kept my mouth shut, on saturday I found a dead Cardinal in my smaller tank (as detailed somewhere else on this forum)
Now, today I noticed that a female guppy in my 125L is having trouble. She is struggling to stay horizontal and seems to be spending most of her time with her head pointing towards the floor. She perked up a but when I out some Daphnea in to feed them, but has now reverted to her vertical state, head down. J have also noticed some clear/white stringy "poo" which doesn't fill me with confidence.

Could she be having a difficult birth (she is pregnant) or is this, as I fear, something worse?

 

[fidjet2]

I don't think it has anything to do with the pregnancy
what are your water parims?
Long stringy white poo can be constipation, bacterial infections, internal parasites.
Clear poo can be the fish hasn't been eating, internal parasites.
Do any fish look skinny or bloated?
Does the tummy look sunken in?
Any fish with bent spines?
Any worms prutruding from its anus?

 

[nehpets81]

Thanks for the reply, there have been some developments...

The fish stopped standing on it's head after about a day and for the last few days she has mostly been floating near the surface of the tank in the quietest area of the tank. She seems to have very red gill areas and they seem to be somewhat swollen too. She is not gasping for air though, just kind of hovering. She does not swim around unless there is food about and she is not being harassed by the male guppy.

When I feed the fish, she does come to life. She swims down from her corner and tries to eat some food. I think she eats a very small amount, and the pieces need to be very tiny for her to eat. She tries to eat slightly larger bits (still very small) but ends up spitting them out, seemingly unable to swallow the bits. To put it into context, a small piece that she spat out was quickly hoovered up whole by a fry.

As a result of this she is now very thin and honesty, I'm not sure she is going to survive without some kind of intervention.

To answer your questions:

1. Ammonia and Nitrate are zero, Nitrates are 30ppm (this is similar to the levels in my tapwater). PH is 7.4-7.6 and the water is hard.
2. Most of the poo was clear, after what you said above I think it might be due to not eating
3. The fish looks very skinny but the tummy doesn't look sunken in.
4. The affected fish doesn't have a curved spine but that of one of the others does look slightly curved.
5. There are (thankfully)currently no worms protruding from the anus.


Some more background is that all my guppies have been regularly scratching and flashing since I got them (a few months ago) and asking for advice and doing some research I treated the tank for gill flukes with Sterazin. I followed the instructions on the bottle and used carbon to remove the med.


For what it's worth, my thoughts are that either the gill flukes were not completely erradicated or something which is now occuring to the is that perhaps the fish has been infected with a secondary gill infection - I did not treat for any other infections at the time but having researched this online there are suggestions that an antibacterial should be administered to guard against secondary infections. The flicking has been drastically reduced (but not completely)

I would love any advice as to what I should do next

 

[nehpets81]

OK, things have not progressed well. The fish is now unable to swim upright and seems to be swimming in a kind of corkscrew motion...

Can anyone help?

 

[nehpets81]

Well I isolated the affected fish and she is still alive but hardly moving. Her body is kind of bent and she is not swimming. A couple of days ago she seemed to pass some white stringy poo.

Unfortunately things are not going well with the other fish. Yesterday I noticed that one of the other female guppies had a large white flaky area on her back. Today she is not moving and just kind of floating so I isolated her too. Having looked online, this really looks like saddleback Columnaris. Could this be the same thing that attacked the first guppy? The symptoms don't really seem to be that identical...

This afternoon I came back from work to find a Cory dead under the bogwood. This cory has never had barbles and often had trouble eating but seemed to be doing OK. What is happening? Is all this related? What can I do???

Oh, just checked the water perameters - Ammonia and Nitrite still zero. Nitrate is 40ppm.

 

[alihar]

Hi Steve
Fidjet has already pointed out possible causes for symptoms you describe.
IME guppies can be prone to swimbladder problems also.
The swollen gills you describe could be hyperplasia from damage already sustained.
I would go with esha2000 broad spec med, it treats 18 different diseases and will cover internal bacteria, external skin damage and gill damage you have described.
Also when I keep guppies I always feed cooked shelled peas once a week to aid digestion.
Hope this helps.
Alison

 

[nehpets81]

Thanks for the reply - do you think esha2000 would be better than something like Myxazin? Would I be best holding off to see if I get any more casualties? I'm almost sure the second guppy has columnaris as it's back had a white patch that looked a lot like some piccies online, she is deteriating fast and I suspect she will be dead before I can get my hands on any meds.

I did suspect swim bladder problems with the first guppy that got sick. Could that explain the fact she is bent tho? Could Columnaris be causing her problems too? Could Columnaris be causing the flicking behaviour in the other fish or am I barking up the wrong tree here and perhaps these incidences are not related....

 

[alihar]

Hi Steve
Columnaris doesn't usually cause fish to flash unless the bacterial infection is complicated by a parasitic infestation.
If the guppy you suspect had swimbladder had a slight curve of the spine that could just be down to swimbladder problems. IME guppy with swimbladder problems look to have slight curvature of the spine not bent as such.
Bent spines can be due to birth defect, injury and old age as well as diseases such as TB, NTD and internal parasites.
Its a judgement call as to wether or not you hold off on treatment.
At an early stage extra small PWC, extra aeration and lower tank temps of around 24 degrees may well be all that's needed.
If you think the disease is advancing I personally would go with esha2000 it has a wider range action than myxazin and after the initial 3 day course you can carry on with treatment if you think necessary.
That's just my personal preference tho I have used myxazin in the past but now always use esha2000.
Alison

 

[nehpets81]

Thanks, I think I'll get hold of some esha2000. Just to confirm as I realise this thread is a bit wordy, the symptoms are:

All Guppies - Flicking on sand and plants

Ill Guppy 1:

Flicking
Spent 1 day standing on head
Spent next few days not moving much and lurking near the surface
Unable to eat - still took food but spat out again unable to swallow
Slowly wasting away due to lack of food
Gills red and inflamed
Then started spiralling in a corkscrew motion
Isolated then started moving less and less
Spine became bent sideways - at almost 90 degree angle
Long white poo
Now hardly moving but still breathing


Ill Guppy 2:

Flicking
Possible problem eating - didn't study this enough
White flaky substance appeared on the back in a large patch near the dorsal fin
Isolated and died within a day


Cory:

Always lacked barbels
Kind of blew water at the floor - sounds odd but only way to describe it
sat at an unnatural angle on the floor and a plant
Died within 24 hours




Other guppies eating OK but flicking and the females look a bit listless on the sand substrate, not moving much outside of feeding time

All Ammonia and Nitrite readings continue to be zero. This fishkeeping lark is becomming stressfull! Oh, can Guppies catch NTD?

 

[alihar]

Any fish can catch NTD. I believe it was given the name as it was first noticed in Neons.
That's not to say of course your guppy has that, bent spine is just one of the symptoms of NTD.
How often are the fish flicking?
Is it every now and again or constantly like every few minutes?
Alison

 

[nehpets81]

Sorry for leaving it so long to reply, I have left things as they are to see if there are any developments. The adult fish have pretty much stopped flicking now - I'm not at home during the day but in the evenings I sometimes don't see them flick at all. The juvenile fry, however, are flicking. It varies - sometimes they do it a few times an hour, sometimes not at all.

One thing that has become more obvious is the slight curvature of the spine of the two remaining female adult guppies. The best way to describe it is that it looks like the tail and head is weighed down, to create a gentle curve. Also, one of the smaller fry is bent a bit like a boomerang shape, but the other way so it's tail and head are higher than it's middle. Also the gravid spots sometimes appear a bit pinkish.

Finally one of the adult females has developed two small white spots on her body. Last night I gave her a salt dip but this morning the white spots are still there. As one of my other females died very rapidly after developing a white, flaky "saddle" this is concerning me a bit.

Finally, and I'm describing pretty much everything odd here but one of my female guppies has a dark "bruise" colouring on the top of her head, between her eyes as you look down. It looks a bit like a gravid spot in her head! Is this something to worry about?

Oh yeah, and I found a dead fry this morning. I felt over the last few weeks that I had turned a but of a corner with this but I feel at a loss again

My thoughts:

Is the flicking a bit of a distraction and not related to what is killing my fish?

Something seems to be slowly picking off my fish one by one - the female Guppies seem particularly susceptible - could this be to the stress of birthing?

NTD - the more I read online the more some of the syptoms seem to fit, but I think that everytime I read a disease description! The fish don't really appear lumpy before the die, though. How quickly does this normall spread? Whatever it is is not raging through my tank quickly, but slowly picking off the fish...

Columnaris - one of my deaths really seemed like this was the problem - white flaky saddle and rapid death seems to fit almost exactly what I have read online about this but so far but I would have expected more casualties more quickly if this was the case (although I did treat the second tank where this fish was with an antibiotic).

Immune systems - is there something wrong with the immunde systems of my fish that is making them susceptible to diseases that are normally present in the environment and that most fish can fight off?

Gill flukes - the adults seem to have stopped flicking so this is seeming less likely but it is still in the back of my mind as the initial symptoms pointed me in this direction.

TB - The fish don't seem to be losing scales so I discounted this but some of the symptoms fit. Obviously as I'm often putting my hands in thr tanks, this is something I want to discount.

Finally, is there anywhere that will perform an autopsy on something as small as a guppy? This might sound odd but the uncertainty is starting to stress me out!

 

[alihar]

Yeah I completely understand the stressing out!
It's frustrating when you lose fish or they have persistent symptoms that cannot be pinpointed.
Local vetinary colleges will perform autopsies but you will pay a lot of money for it.
It would probably work out cheaper to invest in a microscope and perform your own investigations.
It's a little daunting at first but with research and practice it's actually a very interesting side to the hobby
Where to start?!
Back to the beginning!
Check all your water parameters.
Check your tank ph and tap water ph after sitting for 24hrs.
Test your ph morning and night to see if there are any obvious swings. Ph swing of 0.3 is tolerated by fish but anything more could cause stress.
Test your ammonia 1 hour after feeding. Sometimes you can get an ammonia spike at this time wich again can cause stress.
Check there is no contaminants ie sprays used near tank or plug in airfresheners etc.
IME guppies can be very weak as a result of line breeding for colour and finnage.
I only have 2 guppy in my tank now and they will be my last!
I have only ever had 2 guppy in 16 years last over 18 months.
The slight curvature could just be the fish itself. I've had many guppy appear to have slight curvature almost as if the tail is weighing it down.
The " bruise " on the head could just be coloration.
Guppies colour can change as they get older and I've also experienced what looks like a bruise between the eyes but the fish was perfectly healthy.
Are the small White spots cotton wool like or salt grain like?
What male/ female ratio do you have?
The females could be getting stressed from being constantly pregnant.
Some fry are born with defects so the " boomerang " fry could just have a birth defect.
Losing one fry is probably of not much concern if you lose the whole batch then it's a cause for concern.
Anything spreading through your tank would most probably wipe out the fry first.
If you have flukes the fry would not survive.
An adult fish can cope with a few flukes but fry are usually devastated by them.

 

[nehpets81]

Yeah I completely understand the stressing out!
It's frustrating when you lose fish or they have persistent symptoms that cannot be pinpointed.
Local vetinary colleges will perform autopsies but you will pay a lot of money for it.
It would probably work out cheaper to invest in a microscope and perform your own investigations.
It's a little daunting at first but with research and practice it's actually a very interesting side to the hobby
Where to start?!
Back to the beginning!
Check all your water parameters.
Check your tank ph and tap water ph after sitting for 24hrs.
Test your ph morning and night to see if there are any obvious swings. Ph swing of 0.3 is tolerated by fish but anything more could cause stress.
Test your ammonia 1 hour after feeding. Sometimes you can get an ammonia spike at this time wich again can cause stress.
Check there is no contaminants ie sprays used near tank or plug in airfresheners etc.
IME guppies can be very weak as a result of line breeding for colour and finnage.
I only have 2 guppy in my tank now and they will be my last!
I have only ever had 2 guppy in 16 years last over 18 months.
The slight curvature could just be the fish itself. I've had many guppy appear to have slight curvature almost as if the tail is weighing it down.
The " bruise " on the head could just be coloration.
Guppies colour can change as they get older and I've also experienced what looks like a bruise between the eyes but the fish was perfectly healthy.
Are the small White spots cotton wool like or salt grain like?
What male/ female ratio do you have?
The females could be getting stressed from being constantly pregnant.
Some fry are born with defects so the " boomerang " fry could just have a birth defect.
Losing one fry is probably of not much concern if you lose the whole batch then it's a cause for concern.
Anything spreading through your tank would most probably wipe out the fry first.
If you have flukes the fry would not survive.
An adult fish can cope with a few flukes but fry are usually devastated by them.

Thanks for your continuing help with this! I might look into getting a microscope - would that be able to positively identify NTD, Ammonia fluctuation poisioning and things like that? At least it would put the fluke thing to bed for good I guess...

A lot of what you say is actually quite reassuring - I'm glad in a way that the fry wouldn't be able to fight off fill flukes, that makes that look a lot less likely. Also, not great for you but the fact you have difficulty with the longeivity of guppies is also quite reassuring - I'm not that hopeless then! So far it does seem to be the females only that are weaker - they seem to die just after giving birth so I guess that weakens them.

I tested Ammonia and there was no spike today after feeding - not to say this is always the case of course. The PH of the tank is actually 7.8, a bit higher than expected. The PH of the tap water is 7.6 straight out of the tap with added dechlorinator - could this difference during a water change be causing the flicking?

The two white spots have merged and turned into a larger white patch. It is not really wooly or like grains of sand - more like flaky white skin ( a bit like a milder version of what happened to the other female). She seems fine but I'm a bit concerned she will fall victim to the same thing as the other one now...

 

[alihar]

A microscope would be able to help identify parasites and cause of death of a fish.
Ammonia and ph swings would have to be determined by continuous water testing at different times of the day.
Ph swings of 0.3 are tolerated well by fish and it's common that a ph reading of a morning will be different of that of an evening so you are looking for a considerably larger swing in ph to be causing irritation.
Try testing the ph of your tap water after standing for 24 hrs.
If the fish seem to flash more after a water change it could be down to ph or heavy metals in the water.
Make sure your dechlorinator treats chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals.
If you are wanting to keep guppies make sure you have a minimum of 2 female to 1 male or just stick with all males.
If you can rule out envoiremental stress and the flicking is persistent or if you are particularly concerned about the patches on the femake guppy go with the esha 2000
treatment. The patches you describe are most likely bacterial or fungal infection. You could even try giving her salt baths over a period of 3 days if you are concerned
about using more medication.
If the flicking is minimal and the female guppy isn't getting
any worse you could also try twice weekly smaller water changes for a few weeks rather than one large one per
week.

 

[nehpets81]

Just a bit of an update - my female has now recovered but sadly one male is now on the way out. He usually hangs around behind the filter near the surface, his body is all twisted, he's having trouble swimming, his colour is much paler than before and today he now seems to have some peeling skin. I think he's probably doomed, could it be an idea to euthanase?

On the plus side, I am getting a microscope for xmas so will be able to perform an autopsy if my stomach will take it and the guppy holds on another week or so...