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Gravel vacuum questions

JackGulley

Fish Crazy
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I've been vacuuming the gravel thoroughly with the siphon about every other water change since I got the tank. I got the impression that this is what you're supposed to do, but now I've heard a few things on this forum that confuse me.
a), I've heard people say "don't stir up the substrate when you vac because that causes ammonia spikes", but isn't the whole point of vacuuming to get all the decomposing stuff *out* of the gravel?
b), I saw something that seemed to suggest that you only gravel vac in a non-planted tank.
 
You’re correct, you plunge the vac right down to the bottom glass to vacuum the muck out of the gravel. If there’s rotting food within the gravel to cause an ammonia spike then it’s a very badly maintained tank.
 
I've been vacuuming the gravel thoroughly with the siphon about every other water change since I got the tank. I got the impression that this is what you're supposed to do, but now I've heard a few things on this forum that confuse me.
a), I've heard people say "don't stir up the substrate when you vac because that causes ammonia spikes", but isn't the whole point of vacuuming to get all the decomposing stuff *out* of the gravel?
b), I saw something that seemed to suggest that you only gravel vac in a non-planted tank.
Great question. I have been wondering about that too. Let’s see what our cognoscenti have to say.
 
I have plants so I really only vaccume the top of the substrate. Depends where though if there is no plants near the area I will go a bit lower into the substrate with the vac. If you have a deep substrate with some sort of dirt or nutrients enrhiched I would say not to go down too far into the substrate when vaccuming it.
 
Sometimes when we're new to aquariums, we look for solutions without identifying causes. I'm of the non gravel vacuuming persuasion. I think a certain amount of mulm setting into the sand or gravel is a good thing for my plants, and for my "detritivorous' fish to sift through.
Where vacuuming becomes essential is if we don't know how to feed our fish. It's build-ups of uneaten food that cause the issues, not run of the mill debris and waste.
We all overfeed. Experienced aquarists do it sometimes, and new aquarists do it almost always.

If I'm conditioning fish for breeding, they get fed twice a day, sparingly but with carefully chosen foods. Otherwise, to keep them healthy, they get fed once a day, six days a week. I vacuum up fallen leaves and any algae clumps that decide to establish themselves, but with no plecos, I get no piles of fish waste and with careful feeding, no uneaten food.

It's hard because it's pleasurable to feed our fish. For most of us, it's the one time a day we interact with them. But we also tend to kill them with kindness at times. That can be through obesity, or through wrecking the water quality. I do my weekly water changes, siphon up debris and hardly ever gravel vac.
 
Sometimes when we're new to aquariums, we look for solutions without identifying causes. I'm of the non gravel vacuuming persuasion. I think a certain amount of mulm setting into the sand or gravel is a good thing for my plants, and for my "detritivorous' fish to sift through.
Where vacuuming becomes essential is if we don't know how to feed our fish. It's build-ups of uneaten food that cause the issues, not run of the mill debris and waste.
We all overfeed. Experienced aquarists do it sometimes, and new aquarists do it almost always.

If I'm conditioning fish for breeding, they get fed twice a day, sparingly but with carefully chosen foods. Otherwise, to keep them healthy, they get fed once a day, six days a week. I vacuum up fallen leaves and any algae clumps that decide to establish themselves, but with no plecos, I get no piles of fish waste and with careful feeding, no uneaten food.

It's hard because it's pleasurable to feed our fish. For most of us, it's the one time a day we interact with them. But we also tend to kill them with kindness at times. That can be through obesity, or through wrecking the water quality. I do my weekly water changes, siphon up debris and hardly ever gravel vac.
I guess I don't understand the difference between "siphon up debris" and "gravel vac".
 
I will add to my previous comment as this is a factor in my deep vacuuming my substrate in areas without plants. I run under gravel filtration so, no matter what, some crud will get under the filter plates. Doing a vacuum all the way down to the filter plates helps keep the area under the plates cleaner allowing better water flow for filtration.
 
I have kept tropical fish for more than 30 years and never deep vacuum my gravel substrate. Most of my fish are more than 10 years, and I cannot remember when I last had any sick fish. I regularly change about a third of the aquarium water every week, at which time I just siphon up any detritus that is lying on the surface of the gravel. GaryE mentioned that almost everyone overfeed their fish, and I agree. Overfeeding produces more waste either from the fish themselves or from rotting feed. Uneaten food can clog your filter, decreasing its efficiency and reducing circulation in the aquarium. This can affect oxygen content in the water, ph and a rise in ammonia and nitrite levels, which can give general stress to your fish. Decomposing fish food also offers a place for mould and fungus to grow. I only feed my fish once, 3 times a week.
 
good thread... the 1st sand I tried, for my Cory's was too fine, & made it a pain to vacuum... I always end up with too much sand in my bucket...

I don't think I'll be doing dirt under substrate in any future tanks... the the couple I did, I put the dirt in squat wide mouth canning jars ( only about an inch & a half or 2 inches tall, then covered with substrate, & put the plants over the jars, then vacuumed around the jars...

cant see vacuuming with a blended substrate, they get intermixed too quickly on their own...
 
I've been vacuuming the gravel thoroughly with the siphon about every other water change since I got the tank. I got the impression that this is what you're supposed to do, but now I've heard a few things on this forum that confuse me.
a), I've heard people say "don't stir up the substrate when you vac because that causes ammonia spikes", but isn't the whole point of vacuuming to get all the decomposing stuff *out* of the gravel?
b), I saw something that seemed to suggest that you only gravel vac in a non-planted tank.
Hello Jack. I don't like to vacuum the gravel. It can damage plants and messes with the aquascape of the tank and generally upsets the bottom material. To me, it's best to just remove and replace most of the tank water every few days. By doing this simple thing, you remove whatever has dissolved in the water and whatever toxic materials that are left behind after the water change are diluted to a safe level in all the new water. Besides, the plants are using up some of that organic material that collects on the bottom.

10
 
Whether/how much to gravel vac, how deep and how often etc depends on a few factors, plus some personal opinion.

Gravel, sand, or planted substrates need different maintenance. So you'll get different answers depending on substrate.

Digging a gravel vac into a planted or dirted tank substrate might cause an ammonia or nitrite spike for sure. But not into gravel or sand.

On sand, depending on how good the filtration is, what the flow in the tank is like - if the flow sweeps most of the detritus to the filter intake, might never need to vac sand, since things like algae wafers and uneaten food don't sink into the sand as much as they do with gravel. Although especially if you have fish that dig, like cories, some does get down there, without usually causing a problem.

Live plants like some mulm, so even with gravel, no need to try to keep it immaculate and remove every trace of mulm, or disturb plant roots. Can use a small gravel vac for working around plants, you don't want to disturb their roots too much.

Mulm is basically organic matter breaking down. Bits of plant leaves/roots, uneaten fish food, fish poop etc, botanicials etc all being broken down by bacteria and "little buggies" @Seisage ;) the way earthworms and bacteria break down leaves and muck, turning it into good compost and soil.

Most of those little buggy critters and bacteria are beneficial, or harmless, and some mulm is fine, and expected, and provides plant food, as @GaryE mentioned.

It's a mini ecosystem, so you can't and shouldn't try to make the substrate and tank immaculate and shiny every week. While it's an artificial ecosystem we're creating, there are a lot of natural processes going on at a chemical, biological, and microscopic level.

Problems arise especially in unmaintained gravel tanks if too much organic waste builds up. That can overload the system, allow bad bacteria to thrive, or things like problem algae, or cyanobacteria, which is pretty nasty stuff. So if a tank is overfed, over stocked, doesn't have many or any live plants helping maintain water quality and using up the nutrients in the mulm, if the tank isn't maintained well or cleaned at all and waste continues to build, if it's under filtered, doesn't have much flow etc. Things can turn toxic, and since more detritus tends to build up in gravel, and most people begin with gravel, you're better off gravel vacc-ing waste, making sure not to overfeed, but no need to go crazy with it and suction the entire tank every week. sweep the surface, dig into areas that need it, leave the bits that don't. Do a deeper cleaner on one half one week, then the other the opposite week, whatever system you settle into.

There is some fear about very old tanks that haven't been maintained much, or have really deep gravel beds that haven't been disturbed for a long time, being disturbed like suddenly stirring up pockets of anaerobic bacteria, which could poison the fish, apparently. But in your new set up, that's incredibly unlikely, requires a deep and undisturbed for a long time substrate I think, and there's some debate I believe about how often or likely it is to occur in an aquarium setting. The chemistry whizzs and more experienced folks like @gwand , @Essjay and @Seisage would know a lot more about that than I.

Over feeding the tank, under cleaning it, or even over cleaning it, like people who rinse everything, including gravel, under the tap (or with soap!!) because they want it nice and clean looking, but wipe out their beneficial bacteria colonies and can't establish a cycle. There's a happy middle ground.
 
Whether/how much to gravel vac, how deep and how often etc depends on a few factors, plus some personal opinion.

Gravel, sand, or planted substrates need different maintenance. So you'll get different answers depending on substrate.

Digging a gravel vac into a planted or dirted tank substrate might cause an ammonia or nitrite spike for sure. But not into gravel or sand.

On sand, depending on how good the filtration is, what the flow in the tank is like - if the flow sweeps most of the detritus to the filter intake, might never need to vac sand, since things like algae wafers and uneaten food don't sink into the sand as much as they do with gravel. Although especially if you have fish that dig, like cories, some does get down there, without usually causing a problem.

Live plants like some mulm, so even with gravel, no need to try to keep it immaculate and remove every trace of mulm, or disturb plant roots. Can use a small gravel vac for working around plants, you don't want to disturb their roots too much.

Mulm is basically organic matter breaking down. Bits of plant leaves/roots, uneaten fish food, fish poop etc, botanicials etc all being broken down by bacteria and "little buggies" @Seisage ;) the way earthworms and bacteria break down leaves and muck, turning it into good compost and soil.

Most of those little buggy critters and bacteria are beneficial, or harmless, and some mulm is fine, and expected, and provides plant food, as @GaryE mentioned.

It's a mini ecosystem, so you can't and shouldn't try to make the substrate and tank immaculate and shiny every week. While it's an artificial ecosystem we're creating, there are a lot of natural processes going on at a chemical, biological, and microscopic level.

Problems arise especially in unmaintained gravel tanks if too much organic waste builds up. That can overload the system, allow bad bacteria to thrive, or things like problem algae, or cyanobacteria, which is pretty nasty stuff. So if a tank is overfed, over stocked, doesn't have many or any live plants helping maintain water quality and using up the nutrients in the mulm, if the tank isn't maintained well or cleaned at all and waste continues to build, if it's under filtered, doesn't have much flow etc. Things can turn toxic, and since more detritus tends to build up in gravel, and most people begin with gravel, you're better off gravel vacc-ing waste, making sure not to overfeed, but no need to go crazy with it and suction the entire tank every week. sweep the surface, dig into areas that need it, leave the bits that don't. Do a deeper cleaner on one half one week, then the other the opposite week, whatever system you settle into.

There is some fear about very old tanks that haven't been maintained much, or have really deep gravel beds that haven't been disturbed for a long time, being disturbed like suddenly stirring up pockets of anaerobic bacteria, which could poison the fish, apparently. But in your new set up, that's incredibly unlikely, requires a deep and undisturbed for a long time substrate I think, and there's some debate I believe about how often or likely it is to occur in an aquarium setting. The chemistry whizzs and more experienced folks like @gwand , @Essjay and @Seisage would know a lot more about that than I.

Over feeding the tank, under cleaning it, or even over cleaning it, like people who rinse everything, including gravel, under the tap (or with soap!!) because they want it nice and clean looking, but wipe out their beneficial bacteria colonies and can't establish a cycle. There's a happy middle ground.
What I can say about anaerobic bacteria is that anaerobic conditions are much more likely to occur in sand, especially very fine sand. Basically, for anaerobic conditions to arise, there needs to be no flow to bring in new oxygenated water. Regardless of substrate type, these conditions are unlikely to occur if you have a very shallow substrate. It's also less likely to occur with gravel (unless it's very deep) since the grain sizes are much larger and allow for more water movement between them.

I'm not sure I would worry too much about disturbing anaerobic sediments. I'm very familiar with estuarine mudflats, which are heavily dominated by anaerobic bacteria since mud and silt are very small particles. Basically the only way oxygen gets into the sediment is if creatures burrow into it (or if we tromp around and dig in it 😁), so the only "aerobic" sediments are at the surface (extending down to maybe 1-2 inch depth) and the edges of animal burrows. It stinks to high heaven since the bacteria produce hydrogen sulfide which is a rotting egg smell. But, well, animals like worms, clams, crabs, and shrimp dig in it all the time and aren't harmed. It may be worth taking precautions in the closed system of an aquarium though.

For what it's worth, these conditions don't take long to form. The telltale sign is black smudges below the surface of the substrate. You'll see them at the surfaces of the glass. I actually have a little anaerobic bacteria growth in my sand substrate tank already and the tank is only a bit over a month old. My substrate isn't very deep, but it isn't shallow either. Maybe 3in where the anaerobic spot is? The only reason I have it is because I don't have animals that disturb the sediment like shrimp, assassin snails, corys, or loaches. I'm not terribly worried about it, to be honest, although I might address it on my next water change and just start disturbing the sand myself every week.
 
For what it's worth, these conditions don't take long to form. The telltale sign is black smudges below the surface of the substrate. You'll see them at the surfaces of the glass. I actually have a little anaerobic bacteria growth in my sand substrate tank already and the tank is only a bit over a month old. My substrate isn't very deep, but it isn't shallow either. Maybe 3in where the anaerobic spot is? The only reason I have it is because I don't have animals that disturb the sediment like shrimp, assassin snails, corys, or loaches.

Wow, I'm so surprised by this! Although I don't know why I'm surprised, bacteria can multiple like mad after all, but I'm still surprised! Any chance you could share a photo or two of this, pretty please? I need to see it in order to be able to recognise it! Now, if only my sand wasn't black... whoops!

I'm not worried about mine though. The Malaysian trumpet snails are constantly reproducing and turning the sand (and gravel, in by mixed substrate tank) and there are way too many of them because I'm guilty of overfeeding at times too, so snail populations often explode, so even if I didn't have busy little digger cories, the MTS can handle the rest.

I've seen people say that anaerobic pockets are a risk especially if you're disturbing the tank while fish are in there, like rearranging the hardscape or changing out substrate, and that makes more sense to me now. If some rocks or heavy driftwood are compressing the substrate even further in those spots, that would reduce water flow in those areas especially. Cool! Love learning stuff like this, thank you!
 

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