Future 5 Gallon

[Rhykiru]

In the future, i want to make a nano saltwater tank. I have a 5 gallon marineland corner tank that houses one betta. My cousin really likes it so i may give it to him this christmas so he can breed it in his 10 gallon tank. Would it work if i made the 5 gallon tank a FOWLR saltwater tank? <- actually, it wont have any fish at all.

Is it a good idea to keep peppermint shrimps in a 5 gallon tank? I really like the way they look at my lfs (well i like the fire shrimp too but i think those get too big for a 5 gallon tank and too expensive) and i only want to keep shrimp because i think that it is too small to house fishes. I might get a few snails though.

I will probably have live sand but def. will have live rock. I think the guideline is about 1 pound of live rock per gallon of water? I am reading up on cycling now if that matters although i read online that shrimps have a very low bioload.

About the filtration, since its a saltwater tank, i dont even need the biowheel do i? (lol, i would give it a good shake in my planted tank if i didnt need it ) So basically, the filter that comes with the corner tank would be for debri. Do you need carbon in a saltwater tank? Since live rock needs a lot of water movement for it to work effectively, i was thinking of maybe getting either a powerhead or a fluval 1. From the sticky above, a fluval one will be perfect since its circulates 50gph and i think the sticky says a flow of 10x the tank is good for the lr. How heavy is the live sand? Because im worried that with all this circulation, the sand will get blown up.

So basically, here is what i will have:
5 gallon marineland corner tank
live sand (maybe) <-what is another option if there is any?
live rock, at least 5 pounds of it
peppermint shrimp (what is a good stocking for a 5 gallon tank, 4-5?)
maybe a snail
Fluval filter 1, 50 gph
lighting is one of those flourescent swirly tubes that supposedly let out 40 or so watts of light.

im wondering if im missing anything...

Theres no need to answer all of those questions^^
Feel free to answer one if you like, better than nothing in my view.

thank you for any help

 

[Adrinal]

I havent done a tank this small before, long term. But If I did I would have a good supply of RO water that was mixed for a day, and then another day for mixing the salt in. I would start with bi weekly water changes. I wouldn't use sand, and i would make sure I could siphon the crud on the bottom easy. I'd use a maxi jet 900 for flow... perhaps with one of those hydor rotating wheels. If your getting the shop light full spectrum from the hardware store... why not get the ones that claim to put out 100w of incandescent power. If your getting peppermints as your main animal Id go for a half dozen. Once the system was stable i would also get a few serpent or brittle stars. Great fun to feed them in a nano.
snails - couple each of cerith, nazarith, astrea. no crabs.

Thats me though


Live rock and water changes are all you need, not a box with a pump.

 

[Rhykiru]

hm... I dont know where i can get ro water.
You know, seeing some of these RO units, it looks exactly like the one that my dad has that we use for clarifying out tap water into drinking water. Is this the same thing? I mean, the filter part has 3 of those white "canisters" which i think is like the RO unit.

So you think i should have no substrate?

also, i dont know if im reading this right but are you saying that i dont need a filter?
And about the maxi jet 900... I looked it up online and it says it has a flow of 230 gph O_O Surely you mean something else lol.

and about water changes, is 2 gallons a week ok? minus the lr which will take about 1 gallon, thats 50%. Or is that even too much for shrimp?
And about the stocking, do you think i need to cycle the tank if i just start off with live rock and only 5 shrimp? Then like the next week ad one shrimp, then next one each of those snails, then get a brittle star (btw, my cuz and i were at my lfs on sunday where i plan to buy this stuff and there were tons of those stars. we were like . It looks cool and nasty at the same time)

hm, if anyone has ever seen a 5 gallon marineland corner tank, you probably know what i mean right now: Since i dont need the filter that came with the tank (from what i inferred *if correctly* by Adrinals post, then should i just take of the whole top black thing, save the part where you screw in the bulb, and then make my own hood from that so that there will be room for a power head?

thanks.

 

[Adrinal]

hm... I dont know where i can get ro water.
You know, seeing some of these RO units, it looks exactly like the one that my dad has that we use for clarifying out tap water into drinking water. Is this the same thing? I mean, the filter part has 3 of those white "canisters" which i think is like the RO unit.

So you think i should have no substrate?

also, i dont know if im reading this right but are you saying that i dont need a filter?
And about the maxi jet 900... I looked it up online and it says it has a flow of 230 gph O_O Surely you mean something else lol.

and about water changes, is 2 gallons a week ok? minus the lr which will take about 1 gallon, thats 50%. Or is that even too much for shrimp?
And about the stocking, do you think i need to cycle the tank if i just start off with live rock and only 5 shrimp? Then like the next week ad one shrimp, then next one each of those snails, then get a brittle star (btw, my cuz and i were at my lfs on sunday where i plan to buy this stuff and there were tons of those stars. we were like . It looks cool and nasty at the same time)

hm, if anyone has ever seen a 5 gallon marineland corner tank, you probably know what i mean right now: Since i dont need the filter that came with the tank (from what i inferred *if correctly* by Adrinals post,
then should i just take of the whole top black thing, save the part where you screw in the bulb, and then make my own hood from that so that there will be room for a power head?

thanks.

-It is the same thing. Reefers usually run it through a final stage after the RO called DI... and I don't know what it stands for now that I come to think of it. But certianly drinking water from a forced membrane will still be loads better than tap water.

-Substrate, doesn't matter either way. My preference would be in the order of black acrylic, fine sand, other.

- Maxi jet 900 and live rock IS your filter (which will run better with sand but harder to maintain with sand... I go with the easy maintenance). Maxi 900 is the best watts per flow powerhead. Its hardly too much flow... ever been in the ocean and have your whole body move meeters in secconds? Think thats only 40x flow? LOL Just don't aim it directly at an animal! ;p More flow will get you healthier animals.

I dont know the specific tank you are working with... but I know you need to hide a heater some where.


My guess on time line if it were my tank.

Cure rocks, lots of water changes, no light 6 weeks... cover it... dont even look at the tank for 6 weeks

enjoy bugs and stuff growing from the ocean. Durring this period you need to do some heavy water changes... 100% if it were me.

1.5 months - snails (i mean the lights should be on now so they have something to eat).

3.5 months - 6 shrimps a few corals.

7 months - if things have been stable for 6 months, starfish.

Once you get to the period of regular water changes a gallon twice a week should be a good start. make sure to have mixed the water for a day. and slowly add it back into the tank.

 

[Rhykiru]

heres a pic of the tankwell link to the tank)
Marineland 5 gallon corner tank
I know its not the best pic but you can kind of see the size of the tank by the type of fish in there.

the only reason why im wondering about the power head is because with that in the tank with the hood off, there will be soo much current and because i am only keeping mostly invert, maybe a starfish, wont that current be too much for peppermint shrimp?


and i dont think i will be getting any corals lol, maybe some microalgae but i dont have enough money for corals (only place with them are at my lfs and even a palm sized type of any is at least over $50)

Also, i dont think i will be using any substrate at all unless if it very heavy because if i used sand in that tank, it would be blown around all the time and mess up the powerhead. Gah, i dont know what to do since im so new to saltwater stuff.

Also, about how you would set up the tank, I still have to add ammonia right? If i do, wouldnt the waterchanges just take out all the ammonia? (or most of it)

time to do a little more researching...

^^

 

[Donya]

I've seen the tank you posted a pic of turned into basically the exact thing you're talking about stocking-wise (small shrimp and snails), so it would work fine.

I think the guideline is about 1 pound of live rock per gallon of water?

Yep, in fact you could really just do the LR and use dry sand. The LR will colonize the sand. Live sand probably won't get you much compared to the LR.

Do you need carbon in a saltwater tank?

Not unless there's something that goes wrong in the tank. I've never needed it.

i dont even need the biowheel do i?

Forget fw styles of filtration. Best bet is to go with a powerhead that will give you 20x turnover and put a thin sponge over the intake to prevent animals from getting caught on it.

maybe a snail

You'll probably want a couple, either that or hermits to keep up with your LR maintenance. Just avoid things like Turbos in a tank that size and be careful as to how much you put in, because food can run out quickly in small tanks.

maybe a starfish

No starfish in a tank that small, that's asking for a disaster. Not counting the small Asterina stars that come in on LR sometimes, other starfish likely won't survive in a tank that size simply due to food availability. Plus, if it dies for whatever reason and you don't catch it fast, it'll nuke your tank and you risk losing everything.

I still have to add ammonia right?

If you get CURED live rock, then no. Just monitor the levels of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, and wait until the first to go to 0 and nitrate drops below 10. It can take <1 week in a tank that small.

maybe some microalgae

Cured live rock will bring this in for you. Are you meaning macroalgae?

Also, i dont think i will be using any substrate at all unless if it very heavy because if i used sand in that tank, it would be blown around all the time and mess up the powerhead.

The substrate will do fine, just give it time to settle and point the powerhead at the surface rather than at the substrate.

 

[Rhykiru]

about the substrate, if i use just reg sand (play sand im assuming is what your kind of talking about) i know for sure that the powerhead will make a duststorm. Thats because in my 20 gallon long with play sand, an xp3 with the output nozel on the back left pointing towards the front right corner will still make the sand get blown up and make me be able to see the glass.

but, maybe the reason for that is because in that tank, i try to get as little surface aggitation as possible because its a planted tank with c02 added so that can out gas it.

I would love hermit crabs, but i wonder if my lfs has them. They look so cool lol. Ok, and dont get a lot of turbos, (1?) *makes mental note to self* Also, is it because turbos are like some fw snails that can multiply on their own?

ugh, im a bit confused about the cycling bit. I read the sticky on the top of this fourm page and i cant tell if the cycling process that is being explained is using cured or uncured rock. With me reading your thing about the cycling, are you saying that i just add the live rock and the stock i am going to have and monitor it until its 0? Wouldnt have harm the inverts a bit? Im only thinking of this because you said that i do not need to add ammonia and the only other way i can think of getting ammonia in a tank is adding fish (or inverts in my case)

yes, i meant macroalgae x] I wonder when i can go to my lfs and take a really good look at the lr. I do remember that it has a lot of purple stuff on it which is the macro algae from what ive seen.

edit: haha, out of curiousity just now, i went to see the filter thingie that my family has for purifying our drinking water to see if it really was a RO system. Lo and behold, right there is printed "Reverse Osmosis". Doh' i feel like such an idiot >< Theres also a purifying and polishing part too

About the starfish, i really meant a brittle star, Or is a brittle star also not suitable for a 5 gallon tank?

sorry if what ive said above sounds all wierd (to me it does) i just woke up after having a headache because of no sleep yesterday and all these ppls coming over for thanksgiving lol

 

[Donya]

if i use just reg sand (play sand im assuming is what your kind of talking about)

No no! Not playsand. You need to get aragonite sand, it just doesn't matter whether it's "live" sand or is sold dry. For that matter, I wouldn't even put playsand in a fw tank after hearing about some disasters other people have had with it.

I would love hermit crabs, but i wonder if my lfs has them.

Most LFSs that sell marine animals should sell small hermit species, although you have to be careful what type you get. For a cleanup crew, you want small, relatively non-aggressive ones like Clibanarius species. The best species are often sold under names like "red leg hermit" or "red tip hermit," although some people also do well with "blue leg hermits" (Clibanarius tricolor). Avoid zebra hermits (Calcinus laevimanus) in small tanks and don't mix hermit species in a small tank - they'll start fighting.

Ok, and dont get a lot of turbos, (1?) *makes mental note to self* Also, is it because turbos are like some fw snails that can multiply on their own?

Turbos get too big for a 5 gallon - I wouldn't put any in. They can be very active and have a high food requirement, so even with the space issue not considered, you would still have to feed a Turbo daily. A Turbo would also ensure that there would be no algae left over for any other animals to eat. Turbos can be kept in nanos, but I would keep them in <10 gallons. They don't multiply on their own (and actually most fw snails don't either - they can be hermaphrodites with rare self-fertilization and there are a couple that are Parthenogenic, but the vast majority still reproduce sexually even if they are hermaphroditic).

Types of snails that work well in a 5 gallon are things like Nassarius, Certh, Trochus, and I suppose Astrea (although personally I would not consider these snails hardy enough to be a starter species). If you don't have hermit crabs, Nerite species are also great in small tanks.

i cant tell if the cycling process that is being explained is using cured or uncured rock. With me reading your thing about the cycling, are you saying that i just add the live rock and the stock i am going to have and monitor it until its 0? Wouldnt have harm the inverts a bit?

Cycling with uncured live rock would take longer, and if it's dry rock ("dead rock" I guess) then you have to cure it from scratch, and that pretty much replicates the expected fw-style cycle. For that case, you need an ammonia source and you have to wait for ages.

If you use cured live rock, which most people do, then the order is about like this:
- get saltwater and equipment into the tank
- put the LR in
- put the substrate in
- wait about a week and add the cleanup crew

The key is that when your nitrates drop to tollerable levels for inverts (<10ppm), then it means the bacteria are established and ready to deal with a higher bioload. Never deliberately add inverts in a tank that show ammonia or nitrite >0 and likewise never add them to a tank where the nitrates are high. Cured live rock can have some inverts on it, but most of these can handle the mini cycle that will occur. Snails can be killed by even small cycles though, as can other ornamental inverts, so leave those until the initial cycle is over. Also though, you don't want to let the nitrates drop down and then wait a long time before you add the cleanup crew, because then you'll be slowly loosing bacteria due to a lack of ammonia production from animals.

I do remember that it has a lot of purple stuff on it which is the macro algae from what ive seen.

Although there are some purple macros, you might be seeing coraline. If you have snails, purple macro species that I've seen will generally get eaten while coraline won't. If you do add macro, make sure you stick a bubbler in the tank in addition to your powerhead as backup O2 supply in case something causes it to either release spores or lose a lot of fluids into the tank due to damage.

About the starfish, i really meant a brittle star, Or is a brittle star also not suitable for a 5 gallon tank?

I would say neither are suitable. The same food issues apply. Plus, brittle stars may snack on other inverts in the tank.

 

[Rhykiru]

Thanks for breaking it down and answering it for me, it really helps

Arg, i feel like such an idiot

I went to my bookstore and was reading up stuff on saltwater. Then BAM a whole section on live rock. There was this one paragraph that really cleared up to me about the cyling thing. Heres a summary of it with a bit of me

There are usually two types of ways lr is shipped. There are the ppls who dont care and cram as much lr as possible into a box. This is how you get uncured rocks. Then there are the types of ppls who back the lr in moist newspapers and put it in packages to keep moisture. This is how you get cured rock. But, a little amount of the organisms in the lr still do die. This is why when you put the lr in a new tank, you should wait. This is because the dead organisms will be converted into ammonia (<-this is what helped, now i know how you can get ammonia in a tank that has no fish and no ammonia added) After a while, depending on the quality of the lr, all the dead organisms will be converted in the nitrogen cycle and your lr has restabalized itself. It is now safe to add your cleaner crew as long as nitrate is less then 10. The gradually add your stock"

In my case, the tank is mostly just a cleanup crew tank.

But, i just thought of this problem. Since my tank will be a "cleaner crew" tank, their bioload will be very small. Much less than what the lr can handle. And so since there wont be enough ammonia, the organisms will die off. Would this not make the tank go back in a re-cycle as it process the organisms that died because their is not enough food for them.

~~~

Ok, ill try to find some argonite sand. Do they have it in a home improvement store or is it just a fish use stuff?
I dont know if i will be able to get hermit crabs now since i didnt see them at my lfs. I think i can go tomorrow and i will ask to see if they can order some.

Ok, so no turbos at all. And also no stars at all.

I will try to get a stocking list of the inverts i want to get by tomorrow. That is if i can go to my lfs and see what is available in the first place. I really like fire shrimps, Lysmata debelius, They say that they grow as big as peppermint shrimps do (5 cm) but then i read on some other sites that fireshrimp are too big for 5 gallons while peppermints are ok. Is this because the fireshrimp has a bigger body?

woohoo, i feel like i learned so much today

thanks to you all that is

 

[Donya]

Since my tank will be a "cleaner crew" tank, their bioload will be very small. Much less than what the lr can handle.

If you don't plan on any carnivores, then you can go with less LR. That would open up a bit more space in the tank for an interesting invert to move around. The cleanup crew, which will likely need to be fed a bit if there are no fish in the tank, will then supply enough ammonia to keep a smaller amount of LR going.

Ok, ill try to find some argonite sand. Do they have it in a home improvement store or is it just a fish use stuff?

TBH I haven't seen it anyplace but fish stores. If you can find something that says "aragonite sand" elsewhere, I'm sure it would be fine if washed well.

I really like fire shrimps, Lysmata debelius, They say that they grow as big as peppermint shrimps do (5 cm) but then i read on some other sites that fireshrimp are too big for 5 gallons while peppermints are ok. Is this because the fireshrimp has a bigger body?

I've seen some pretty big fire shrimp, quite a bit bigger than the peppermint shrimp I've seen both in body size and whisker span. Someone else will have to weigh in there though, since I haven't kept either of those two specific shrimp species myself.

 

[Rhykiru]

i went to my lfs today, and i saw that they did have argonite sand live sand. Its 5 dollars for 9 pounds.

Ok, then i will ask my lfs to get small rocks so that there will be more crevices instead of a big lump xD

I think i will just stick with peppermint shrimp. I went to a fish store that i dont go to often today and there was a peppermint shrimp that looked pretty big and it was only about 1.5 inches. I think it just looked small to me before because my usual lfs has baby ones.