From Kentucky- all the tap water is hard and high pH.

[baylor703]

I kept goldfish many years ago but have been looking to get into tropicals and I'm currently cycling a 20 gallon tank. My only issue is the pH around here is high- usually 8.1 or 8.2. I believe it's from all the limestone in my state. I've done some research, and have come to the conclusion that it's best to live with the pH you are given rather than try to adjust it because of the trouble and fluctuations it could cause. I'm thinking of starting with platies or maybe a betta or dwarf Gouramis. I'm pretty sure I should avoid tetras and rasboras due to the pH.

Does anyone have any input, or live in this part of the country and could offer advice?

 

[Linkandnavi]

Platies, Bettas and gouramis should be fine. Most tetras are generally from softwater/lower ph origin but not all. Worth looking at specific species online.

It's also worth trying to find out where the stock in your local shop are sourced from and what water they're kept in there. Angelfish for example are traditionally softwater but in the US they're mostly bred commercially in Florida in hard water and will generally do fine in that setup.

My tap water is usually somewhere between 7.5-8ph and between 8-15gh hardness depending on the time of year. I keep angelfish in that with no issue and they breed regularly. I've also kept cardinal tetras and ember tetras without any issue.

If you can match original habitat conditions for live captured stock then all the better of course. But I'd be more worried about taking a "traditionally softwater" fish bred and raised in hard water and then suddenly plopping it in a softwater tank than I would be about taking a "traditionally softwater" fish that has been bred and raised in harder water and continuing to keep it in the same conditions.

 

[Naughts]

The GH (general hardness, a measurement of the calcium and magnesium minerals) is more relevant than the pH. You can often find your GH from your water provider's water quality report on their website. We now know that soft water fish in hard water or vice versa (usually to a lesser extent) actually never adjust to the parameters (the habitat parameters are fundamental in their evolution) and it shortens their lives. Betta and gourami are soft water fish. A few species of tetra are suited to middling/ slightly hard water.
If you post your GH we can look at options.

 

[Colin_T]

What is the GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness) and pH of your water supply?
This information can usually be obtained from your water supply company's website or by telephoning them. If they can't help you, take a glass full of tap water to the local pet shop and get them to test it for you. Write the results down (in numbers) when they do the tests. And ask them what the results are in (eg: ppm, dGH, or something else).


Depending on what the GH of your water is, will determine what fish you should keep.

Angelfish, most tetras, barbs, Bettas, gouramis, rasbora, Corydoras and small species of suckermouth catfish all occur in soft water (GH below 150ppm) and a pH below 7.0.

Livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), rainbowfish and goldfish occur in medium hard water with a GH around 200-250ppm and a pH above 7.0.

If you have very hard water (GH above 300ppm) then look at African Rift Lake cichlids, or use distilled or reverse osmosis water to reduce the GH and keep fishes from softer water.

 

[baylor703]

I'll give the water company a call on Monday when they open, but here is some of the information I already know from my own tests:

pH: 8.1 or 8.2
GH: >180 (the API test strip I have only reads up to this value- mine is likely higher)
KH: >240 (see above)

The GH (general hardness, a measurement of the calcium and magnesium minerals) is more relevant than the pH. You can often find your GH from your water provider's water quality report on their website. We now know that soft water fish in hard water or vice versa (usually to a lesser extent) actually never adjust to the parameters (the habitat parameters are fundamental in their evolution) and it shortens their lives. Betta and gourami are soft water fish. A few species of tetra are suited to middling/ slightly hard water.
If you post your GH we can look at options.

Interesting. If I'm reading correctly, it turns out that GH is what really matters and not pH? In general, both GH and KH are positively correlated with pH, correct?

I don't quite get your statement on a species' ability to adjust to hardness. Did you mean that fish meant for hard water adjust to soft water easier than the reverse situation? Or the other way around?

 

[Naughts]

Understanding water hardness

Water hardness — not the most exciting of subjects to try and fully understand. The extensive amount of terminology makes the subject seem endless and confusing in equal measure.

www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk

 

[Slaphppy7]

Welcome to TFF

OT, but a suggestion: get the API liquid test kit, if you don't have one already...liquid test kits are more accurate than the paper strip tests...the paper strips can be inaccurate and unreliable, especially if they are aged

Good luck with your setup, you are asking all of the right questions...and kudos for cycling your tank, first and foremost

 

[StevenF]

Interesting. If I'm reading correctly, it turns out that GH is what really matters and not pH? In general, both GH and KH are positively correlated with pH, correct?

I don't quite get your statement on a species' ability to adjust to hardness. Did you mean that fish meant for hard water adjust to soft water easier than the reverse situation? Or the other way around?

Actually GH is a measure calcium and magneisum only in the in the water. These can be in the for sulfate or chloride salts. has little to do with PH. KH is a measure of carbonate CO3 ions in the water onlyis typically a mix of calcium and magnesium carbonate. But water can also have sodium bicarbonate and potassium bicarbonate in it.

PH is mainly impacted by by KH calcium and magnesium carbonate will push the PH up to 7 but that is about as high as it goes. Sodium and potassium bicarbonate can push the PH above 8 Water utilities like to keep the PH above 7 to prevent corrosion of copper and lead pipes. but sometimes these phosphate compounds to get to a high enough PH to keep pipe line erosion low enough.

Naughts comment is that if you put soft water fish in hard water they cannot adjust to that and probably would not be healthy. I don't quite agree with this. Fish do have the ability adjust to a range of GH how much they can adjust is not reallyknown and will depend on the type of fish you have. Many tanks have a GH of about 6 to 8 degrees. and fresh water fish generally do well at this level. Your water is just a little bit higher than that. If you can get distilled or RO water you can mix that with your tap water to reduce your GH and KH.

 

[baylor703]

Really appreciate the warm welcome and all of the information. It's been great. I've managed to get my hands on an API liquid KH and GH test, so here are my tank's official parameters:

-8.1 pH
-8dKH
-12dGH

Here are the fish I'm considering introducing after cycling:
-4 platies
-2 nerite snails (heard they were great cleaners and prefer hard water)
-Would love to add a betta later but I get the impression the water is too hard. If no betta, maybe 4 skirt tetras or something similar. I'm very open to suggestions, and how many fish I should have total in a 20 gallon.

Speaking of cycling, I bought some Tetra SafeStart plus yesterday. Twice the dosage recommended, and shook the bottle hard af to shake loose the bacteria. When I released it into the tank it was like a white cloud but cleared quickly. Twelve hours later, and my 2ppm ammonia that had done nothing for two weeks is nearly gone, 0 nitrites, and 5 nitrates. I didn't really believe it, but it looks like it works. I'm going to wait about 7 days, keep feeding the tank ammonia, and do a 50% water change before introducing anything.

EDIT:
I've heard a lot of different numbers for what actually constitutes hard or soft water. Is there a generally accepted standard anywhere for ranges?

 

[Essjay]

The definition of hard and soft varies depending where you look. Water softener manufacturers will make even soft water sound hard to sell their products, and water providers often use their definitions which is why we ask for numbers.

12 dGH is 215 ppm and is at the lower end of hard. It is not quite hard enough for mollies or Rift Lake cichlids, but is hard enough for the other common livebearers and rainbowfish (though many of these need tanks larger than 20 gallons)

 

[TheTenthDoctor]

I lived in west ohio for a long time and our water was so ridiculously hard. Not sure if this helps but yeah

 

[baylor703]

The definition of hard and soft varies depending where you look. Water softener manufacturers will make even soft water sound hard to sell their products, and water providers often use their definitions which is why we ask for numbers.

12 dGH is 215 ppm and is at the lower end of hard. It is not quite hard enough for mollies or Rift Lake cichlids, but is hard enough for the other common livebearers and rainbowfish (though many of these need tanks larger than 20 gallons)

I tested my tap and the parameters were the same, except the GH. My tank is 12dgh with the tap's being 15. It either went down because of the cycling process, or my tap water hardness varies. I'm definitely starting with platies. What would you think about attempting to introduce a Betta sometime down the road? It looks like opinions vary on this.

The TSS literally cycled the tank overnight. Quite a shock.

 

[Essjay]

Bettas are soft water fish I'm afraid. And they are solitary fish which should really be kept on their own. If you really want a betta you could try one in a separate tank of around 5 gallons, and mix your tap water with RO or distilled water to lower the GH for that tank.

Platies will be fine in that GH, whether it stabilises at 12 or 15 dH.