Fresh Tank Everything Dies

[LtShark1980]

Request Help

Tank size: 10 gallons
pH: perfect
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0
kH: unknown
gH: unkown
tank temp: 69

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior): Fish start to swim funny, upside down or even slowly sideways. The fish become very lethargic. When they die there is usually bulged eyes.
Volume and Frequency of water changes: Water was less than 1 month old when everything died. We changed the entire tank including washing everything down then adding brand new water to the tank.

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: There are no chemical additives and there is a rock, pirate ship, and 3 plastic plants. All bought from the pet store to ensure no unusual chemicals on them.

Tank inhabitants: This second run in 2 months we had 1 pleco, and 4 goldfish. The pleco and two goldfish died this morning.

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): The goldfish were added on Saturday. Everything else is less than 3 weeks old.

Exposure to chemicals: None that I know of.

All of the water tests using my master salter water testing kit come back absolutely clean. I cannot figure out for the life of my why all the fish die over and over no matter what is done. I took the time to ensure the water is filtrated correctly and test it with a master saltwater testing kit. There are no issues that I can see, yet all the fish continue to die over and over. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Wildbetta]

First thing that pops into my head when reading this is that you have not taken the time to cycle the tank.  This involves a lot more than just getting a clean fresh tank and adding water, declorinater, and a filter.  Advice from most fish store employees is to just let the water sit for a day up to a week (depending on the person asked) and then the water should be good to go which unfortunately is not correct.  To learn about cycling your tank please check this area of the forum for excellent information:  http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/forum/291-cycle-your-tank/.    Are you testing the water everyday with your kit or are you testing the water right after you set the tank up?  The tests coming back perfectly clean are another sign that your tank is not cycled because a cycled tank will normally show some level of nitrAtes although you do want the ammonia and nitrIte to stay 0.
 
Another thing is that you have a 10 gallon tank and seem to be sticking fish in it that are not for a 10 gallon tank.  Goldfish and plecos (of any variety) really do not belong in a tank this small.  Both types of fish are extremely messy fish and most of them get really large full grown.  

 

[LtShark1980]

The plecos and the goldfish were to help cycle the tank. Yes they will get larger and will be moved when they do so. Again they were there just to help the cycle get started. It is impossible to start a cycle with no biologicals in the tank. At the moment all of those were at max 3 inches which should suffice in that tank size. The original intent was to have glo fish in the tank and one small pleco while it stayed smile to help with algae.
 
Hmm was using distilled water a bad idea for a fresh water tank? I use distilled in my salt water but I also mix it with salt to make it right for the fish. Perhaps that is where I w went wrong and needed to add some water that actually has some bacteria or biologicals to start the cycle.......
 
Thank you for your help. What is good for salt is not always good for fresh right off.

 

[Byron]

This is not the approach to take.  First, using any fish to "cycle" a tank is cruel to the fish.  All fish are seriously affected by any level of ammonia such as what will (should) occur in a new tank cycling, not to mention the nitrite.  Even if they survive, the internal damage ammonia and nitrite do is irreversible and long-term the fish will pay the price with poor health, deformities, and premature death.  This is guaranteed.
 
Secondly, if you read the articles Wildbetta linked you will see how cycling can be accomplished without using and harming fish.  There is also a product called Dr. Tim's One and Only which does cycle a tank if the directions are followed.
 
I am only surmising here, but I would suspect ammonia and/or nitrite killed the fish.  The symptoms are certainly relevant to this.  Tests using salt water kits in freshwater are not reliable.  The API Master Combo freshwater kit would be a good investment.
 
As to the fish mentioned, a 10g is too small for goldfish no matter what size or time.  The pleco may be too large as well.  Maintaining potentially large fish in small tanks can seriously cause long-term health issues just like the cycling.  If you do not have an adequate sized tank to house the fish species at their mature size, you should not acquire them.  Plans can change, and this again is inhumane to the fish.  Glofish are too large for a 10g too, assuming this name refers to one of the modified species like the Zebra Danio or a Tetra.  These are shoaling fish that need a decent-sized group, and are active swimmers.  A 20g long would be minimum tank size for any of these to be at their best.  And that should be the aim of every aquarist, to maintain fish in the best condition and health.
 
Salt is not necessary in any freshwater tank, and can again cause internal trouble for many fish.  As for distilled water, what is wrong with your source water (tap or well)?
 
Byron.

 

[LtShark1980]

Most of the gloFish that were kept were of the tetra variety. I see lots of complaints about 10 gallon tanks, yet I know lots of people that successfully keep plenty of fish in them for long periods of time. Are you saying that 10 gallon tanks should not be sold at all. Because what you are implying based on mature sizes of many species of fish sold in pet stores hat a 10 gallon will never hold any of this fish. I tend to find this argument a bit invalid. Yes a larger tank would be more ideal I agree with that, but a 10 gallon is not going to kill the species of fish.
 
I was referring to the salt as in that which I use for my salt water tank. The water from taps I though was very unsafe for any fish due to chlorine, chloride, and many other additives that all cities tend to use on their water. No it is not well water, although I know well water is a lot of times too hard. I also would never use tap water in my salt water tank.
 
I have used a 10 gallon tank as a quarintine tank for my salt water. Question here is what is good for a 10 gallon tank? I remember breeding angel fish and having discus in 10 gallons. I know mollies, guppies, and various smaller breeds are fine in 10 gallons.
 
but full circle if those tanks are too small for glofish then should you not be holding this argument with the glosfish company that sells tanks as small as 1 gallon and as large as 20, but most are all smaller?

 

[AmtotheBurr]

A pair of dwarf gourami maybe? A handful of fancy tailed guppy might work. 10 gallon isn't the easiest size but there are options.

 

[RobRocksFishTank]

Goldfish are a poor choice for a ten gallon. So are angels and discus. Full grown they will barely fit in a ten gallon.
 
Properly treated, most tap water is fine for fish tanks. Distilled water is pure water. Not so good for fish unless you use additives to provide the trace elements like you do for your saltwater.
 
There is a lot of old/misinformation out there about cycling. The information provided here, http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first, ismore that you will ever need to know about cycling and you can ask questions in the forum linked above.

 

[Byron]

Most of the gloFish that were kept were of the tetra variety. I see lots of complaints about 10 gallon tanks, yet I know lots of people that successfully keep plenty of fish in them for long periods of time.
 

 
"Successfully" means different things to different aquarists.  Please read the first (blue) citation in my signature block.  No more need be said on this.
 

Are you saying that 10 gallon tanks should not be sold at all. Because what you are implying based on mature sizes of many species of fish sold in pet stores hat a 10 gallon will never hold any of this fish. I tend to find this argument a bit invalid. Yes a larger tank would be more ideal I agree with that, but a 10 gallon is not going to kill the species of fish.
 

 
The scientific facts refute this position, sorry.  This ties in with the previous response...just because a fish can live through what we force it into does not mean it is healthy or "happy," whatever that may mean.  I can assure you without hesitation that potentially large fish kept in too small an environment will have issues internally that the aquarist will never see directly, and be stressed, prone to health problems that would not otherwise, and should not, arise, and have a shorter lifespan.
 
It is absolutely true that many, probably the majority, of fish species sold in basic fish stores will not be healthy in a 10g tank.  Fish grow and develop, both outwardly (physical size) and internally (organ development).  The internal will occur even if the external is held back.  And fish develop like this continually for basically all their lives.  They absolutely must have sufficient space and water volume (relevant to the species) in order to develop properly.  If you keep a German Shepherd dog in a wire cage that provides only sufficient room for the dog to stand and maybe turn around, and never let it out, will it be healthy?  No.  It will (maybe) live, but at a terrible cost.  Fish are no different, but in actuality will fare even worse than the dog, because of the continuing internal development and the effects on this of the environment.
 
There are many species of fish well suited to a 10g tank.  But most of the "common" tetra are not such fish.  The Ember Tetra, Hyphessobrycon amandae, is one that would suit this small a space.  As I said previously, to properly maintain a fish that is shoaling, like all tetra, you need a group; yes, one Glofish may "live" in a 10g, but it needs others of its own species to properly function and be less stressed and healthier.  There are scientific studies now appearing to prove all this, both the effects of the size and the numbers.  There is simply not sufficient space for a decent sized group of Glo Tetra to live normally, and this is due to the physical space limitations as well as the resulting water issues.
 

I was referring to the salt as in that which I use for my salt water tank. The water from taps I though was very unsafe for any fish due to chlorine, chloride, and many other additives that all cities tend to use on their water. No it is not well water, although I know well water is a lot of times too hard. I also would never use tap water in my salt water tank.
 

 
Most tap water is perfectly fine for an aquarium provided it is treated.  There are several good water conditioners on the market that will detoxify chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals.  Nearly all aquarists use one of these.  The source water might be problematic with respect to the GH (hardness), KH and/or pH, depending upon the data and the intended fish species, but that is another issue entirely.
 
Salt should not be used in freshwater aquaria, except for brackish species (which is technically not freshwater anyway).  While these mineral salts may not be immediately harmful for hard water fish (livebearers, rift lake cichlids, some rainbowfish, etc), they can over time cause severe internal issues.
 

I have used a 10 gallon tank as a quarintine tank for my salt water. Question here is what is good for a 10 gallon tank? I remember breeding angel fish and having discus in 10 gallons. I know mollies, guppies, and various smaller breeds are fine in 10 gallons.
 

 
I partially answered this above.  None of these fish you mention here (with the exception of the guppy) belong in a 10g, except as fry raised to a certain stage and then moved into larger tanks.
 

but full circle if those tanks are too small for glofish then should you not be holding this argument with the glosfish company that sells tanks as small as 1 gallon and as large as 20, but most are all smaller?
 

 
There are fish perfectly suited to small tanks.  "Nano" tanks are quite piopular these days, but the fish one can keep healthily in them is limited.  I have small tanks, and large tanks, in my fishroom.  And one cannot assume what any manufacturer may sell for profit is going to be the best solution.

 

[nic1]

Byron, great advice and information.... could not of said it better myself!