Fluval Edge Ph And Fish Choice

[MarcoPereira]

Hi everyone. I have a new 46 litre Fluval Edge and have started the cycling process and, with the help of members here in another section of the forum I am being led in the right path.
One question for future reference though, in regards to stocking it, I have seen amazing stocked edges on Youtube and they look incredible...
I am wanting soft water in this aquarium and trying to recreate a mini amazon biotope.
My tap water here is about neutral to 7.3 Ph but after I add it to my Fluval it becomes acidic, dropping down to 6 or slightly less.
I have bogwood in there (2 pieces) and wonder if this was the issue in my cycling woes?
Also, I was given a light tan coloured sand and rocks but with the poor lighting it all looks very dingy and drab...plants help a bit but it just looks awful to me. Can I change the sand for a lighter colour and remove one piece of bogwood to lighten the look and perhaps raise Ph slightly? I have almond leaves which can give me the black water look later on but not adding them yet as don't want to muck up cycle.
I understand that most BB live in the filter so will changing things and draining tank muck everything up again? I am adding ammonia via a piece of fish that is left in a bowl of water and that has lots of ammonia in that solution.
Any advice on choosing fish and such for the look I would like to achieve?
Look forward to any tips and advice and am aware to not stock to many fish in there, I was thinking a pair of rams ( I know, foolish beginner) and some ember tetras as dither fish? perhaps some shrimp and and Otto or two or a trio of Corydoras to help keep sand clean?
Thank you so much for your time.

 

[the_lock_man]

The issue with the Fluval Edge, assuming that you fill it up the way it's designed to be, is that you have limited surface area of the water, compared with overall volume. It is the rippling of the surface that introduces oxygen to the water, and allows carbon dioxide to leave the water. Because you have limited surface area, the capacity for oxygenation is limited, and this then limits the number of fish that you can have.
 
Add in that it's only a 45l anyway, and you are very limited on stocking options. Certainly, Rams are a no-no, they are too big for anything 45l, let alone an Edge. In fact, I'm struggling to think of something that would be right in an Amazon biotope, with the exception of the dwarf cory species - c.pygmaeus, c.hastatus  and my favourite of the three, c.habrosus. Cories are a shoaling species, in the wild they live in groups that are 100s and often 1000s strong. It's generally accepted around this corner of the interweb that the minimum stocking for a shoaling species is 6. None of those cory species are particularly colourful though.
 
If you were prepared to widen your thoughts geographically, then a shoal of chilli rasbora or celestial pearl danios would be great in an edge, along with some shrimp. With these, you would want to have a lot of plants in the tank. These fish are quite skittish, giving them plenty of places to hide (ie plants) gives them the confidence to be in the open, knowing they can hide quickly if a predator comes along. If they have no hiding places, they will simply congregate in fear in one of the top corners of the tank.

 

[MarcoPereira]

The issue with the Fluval Edge, assuming that you fill it up the way it's designed to be, is that you have limited surface area of the water, compared with overall volume. It is the rippling of the surface that introduces oxygen to the water, and allows carbon dioxide to leave the water. Because you have limited surface area, the capacity for oxygenation is limited, and this then limits the number of fish that you can have.
 
Add in that it's only a 45l anyway, and you are very limited on stocking options. Certainly, Rams are a no-no, they are too big for anything 45l, let alone an Edge. In fact, I'm struggling to think of something that would be right in an Amazon biotope, with the exception of the dwarf cory species - c.pygmaeus, c.hastatus  and may favourite of the three, c.habrosus. Cories are a shoaling species, in the wild they live in groups that are 100s and often 1000s strong. It's generally accepted around this corner of the interweb that the minimum stocking for a shoaling species is 6. None of those cory species are particularly colourful though.
 
If you were prepared to widen your thoughts geographically, then a shoal of chilli rasbora or celestial pearl danios would be great in an edge, along with some shrimp. With these, you would want to have a lot of plants in the tank. These fish are quite skittish, giving them plenty of places to hide (ie plants) gives them the confidence to be in the open, knowing they can hide quickly if a predator comes along. If they have no hiding places, they will simply congregate in fear in one of the top corners of the tank.

 
 
Thank you for your thoughts, yes, I guessed as much but I wonder how this guy on Youtube managed to keep the rams alive? they looked beautiful and the tank was rather full of all sorts of fish....I trust your judgement though. My Edge is not filled to the brim, I prefer a small gap for air and gaseous exchange....just prefer that look as it stands and I know it is against the concept of the Edge but....my idiosyncrasies....
As far as stocking, what about Apistos? cardinal tetras? Ottos?
 
This is what it sadly looks like....first attempt, not very artistic so any advice or opinions would be great too.
Thank you for your time.

 

[fluttermoth]

You really are very limited as to stocking in an Edge. I own one myself, although it's the 23l version and not running at the moment, and I actually like them, but you are very limited when it comes to stocking.

Rams and apistos, while small in size, are cichlids and so need considerably more space as a territory then the Edge can offer. I had a ram that took a dislike to my false neons and killed six of them before I caught her and removed her, and that was in a four foot/240l!

Another problem is that very small fish, like the corydoras species lock man mentioned, very much depend on being in largeish shoals to feel secure; I usually recommend they're kept in groups of at least ten rather than the usual six for that reason.

Cardinals are too large and active; the otos need a more mature tank, as they rely very much on grazing algae and biofilms, and need a biggish group.

However, you could easily do a group of eight or ten of any of the following species; ember tetra, chili or pygmy rasbora, sparkling gourami, dwarf pencilfish or one of the dwarf corydoras species; they're not colourful, but are very cute and fun to watch. Neon blue rasboras are gorgeous, if you can find them. A male betta is another option. Or some dwarf puffers; I think you could have five, but you'd need a really good maintenance regimen, as they are heavy feeders and need pristine conditions, scarlet badis (only one male, but multiple females), or clown killifish.

You could definitely think about having some shrimps; cherries are lovely and really easy to keep, once your tank is cycled and stable.

You could think about hardening the water, which would open up some more options. There are many buffering salts available; hardening water is quite simple, compared to softening!

You could then look at; an all male group of Endlers or guppies (all males so you don't have any population explosions! livebearers breed like rabbits in mixed sex groups), featherfin rainbows, or dwarf emerald or celestial pearl danios (not the normal danio species, like zebras; they're far too active). Shelldwellers like Lamprologus brevis or L. ocellatus are fascinating and beautiful.

As to your tank; most Amazonian biotypes (if you decide to stick with the Amazon theme!) are sort of 'vertical' (think of the markings of angels and discus). So some taller wood (as if it's roots coming down from the bank) and taller plants would help. I found dwarf sagittaria grew really well in my Edge, and got nice and tall.

Hope that gives you some ideas to look at

 

[Byron]

I'd like to pick up on a couple of issues/questions you (Marco) raise in your two posts.  My first comment is to separate "cycling" issues from long-term water parameters.  The cycling will occur and be finished, but the long-term water parameters affect fish (positively or negatively or both) and you do not want to compromise these in an attempt to speed up cycling.
 
As to the water level, some fish must have access to air above the surface, so keeping the water level down as you have done is essential for this.  Corys and otos are mentioned, and both of these must be able to swallow air at the surface or they will literally drown.
 
Sand colour was mentioned.  Dark rather than light is better for all fish, as it is "natural" and thus less stressful.  And here with this small a tank, the fish options are almost inevitably going to be wild-caught species (with some exceptions) and these will be more demanding of "natural" aspects.  The sand in the photo is fine.
 
And this mention of "natural" to the fish brings me to your parameters; most of the fish options will be requiring soft slightly acidic water, so you should be good in this regard.  However, it is worth knowing the hardness of your source water; if you are on municipal water you should be able to find this on their website.  The GH (general hardness) is the level of dissolved mineral in the water, and this impacts the physiology of all fish one way or the other.  The pH is less important but still relevant, and it is connected to the GH and KH (carbonate or bicarbonate hardness or Alkalinity).  I would assume you have relatively soft water if the pH is lowering as you state, so you are probably good, but confirming this with the water numbers will benefit.  I will leave this complex issue for the present, except to say that as you seem to have soft water readily available, I would stay with species suited to that rather than going down the road of adjusting parameters; while it certainly can be done, there are other issues along the way which can introduce some risk.
 
On specific fish species, I am pretty much in agreement with what lockman and fluttermoth posted (fluttermoth "adjusted" some of lockman's numbers, and I agree).  Basically, you want the "dwarf" species of fish, sometimes called "nano" fish, which may sometimes be harder to find in stores but are worth the wait as they will settle in better, be healthier, and thus provide you with more success and enjoyment.
 
One suggestion from the photo, and that is the background.  It is a bit hard to make out, but I am assuming it is some sort of photo type?  I think you would find a plain dull black better, to enlarge the space visually, allow fish and plant and wood colours to stand out, and the activity of the fish would be more obvious.  Plain black construction paper works well for this.  I would also consider floating plants.  Here again, all of the fish under discussion occur in dimly-lit waters with a "cover" either of floating vegetation or overhanging marginal vegetation.  I have floating plants in all my tanks, and consider them mandatory to be honest.  They are fast growing, and thus good oxygenators plus using up nutrients including ammonia/ammonium, they dim the light which makes the fish more "relaxed," and many fish find them a source of live microfoods.
 
Byron.

 

[MarcoPereira]

Thank you Byron and Fluttermoth for your replies and advice. Byron, water out of the tap is roughly Ph of 7-7.5 with hardness of 10-29mg/l. The issue is that when I add this water to my Edge it becomes acidic very quickly, which is desireable but I wonder that everytime I do water changes I would not be stressing fish by adding water that is not the same Ph of the tank.
As for the background, it is just reflection off the glass, I am to install a black matte card this weekend to try and mitigate that from happening so your advice is well taken. 
As for the species you both recommended, love them all! if I was to change parametres how would one keep shell dwellers? I read that they require a 30 gallon tank minimum as they get up to 2".... but the others I love, especially the ember tetras.
Fluttermoth, I have mini jungle Val in there at the moment and am replacing exhisting plants for more of them....just love the look of them so that should help with the more vertical look yes? will also re do  with more fake wood pieces and see how that goes.... 
And lastly, Byron. Should I just leave the tank water to do as it pleases? i.e remain acidic and if so, how would one do water changes? as you can see, my water hardness is very soft.
Thank you again, really appreciated your amazing thoughts and ideas.

 

[Byron]

Those numbers are about what I expected.  The hardness at 10-29 mg/l (which is the same as ppm or parts per million, commonly used in the hobby) can also be expressed in degrees, as around 1 dGH.  Very soft, about the same as what I have.  Stay with soft water fish (I'll come to the shell dwellers momentarily) and you'll be fine.  My tap water is around 7.0 in pH, achieved by the addition of sodium carbonate which readily diffuses out of the water.  It is likely that your municipality is adding something similar to raise the pH, as normally one would expect a much lower pH with near-zero GH, but not always.
 
The KH (carbonate hardness) works to "buffer" the pH, thus preventing it from fluctuating.  In your situation, as in mine, the KH is next to zero (you didn't give it, but with this low a GH and knowing the pH lowers, we can assume it is very low) so the normal biological processes such as the breakdown of organics by bacteria in the substrate will create CO2 and carbonic acid, lowering the pH.  I do 50% water changes on all my seven tanks, and the pH never fluctuates by more than a few decimal points, say from 6.2 to 6.4 or 6.5, then back down within a couple hours.  This is not an issue for any fish.
 
So now you understand why the pH is lowering, and that it is natural and not a problem.  However, if left alone, it could lower much further.  This is where regular (weekly) partial water changes of 1/3 to 1/2 or more of the tank volume works to prevent this.  In my 20+ years I have never had pH issues in any of my tanks.  Each tank is rather a unique biological system, however, and in my seven I have a constant pH that is at or below 5 in a couple tanks, while remaining around 6 or the mid 6 range in others.  I don't worry because the fish are suited to this water.
 
Now to the shell dwellers.  From my research I gather that a 40 litre aquarium could hold a small group (say 5) but spawning might create some issues and need a larger space.  I will leave it to the more experienced cichlid aquarists to offer more.  The easiest and safest way to provide harder water is by using a calcareous substrate such as a sand composed of crushed coral and aragonite (the coral is calcium, the aragonite is calcium and magnesium, both being important long-term).  Water changes might have to be smaller volume to avoid significant changes in GH and pH.  I maintained tanks of rift lake cichlids and mollies using such a substrate for several years.  My thinking is that given your incredible water you have so many options among the "nano" fish of SE Asia and SA that these would seem to be a better option.  They will also suit your plants and wood better.
 
Byron.

 

[MarcoPereira]

Thank you Byron. As per usual, you are spot on and thank you for making it easy to understand. I will take your advice and continue with my dream of a small amazon biotope (ish) and see how one fares.
One question on your other posting reply to my cycle issues, can I add indian almond leaves at this stage or will that just make things more acidic still and stuff up the cycle? If I can, I would love leaf litter in the tank but no Oaks here in my area so how can I make that look happen? and yes, I wish for black water effect but not milky water....if that makes any sense.
Thank you again.
PS will manzanita be suitable and not acidify water as much as the malaysian bog wood I have in there now?

 

[Byron]

Thank you Byron. As per usual, you are spot on and thank you for making it easy to understand. I will take your advice and continue with my dream of a small amazon biotope (ish) and see how one fares.
One question on your other posting reply to my cycle issues, can I add indian almond leaves at this stage or will that just make things more acidic still and stuff up the cycle? If I can, I would love leaf litter in the tank but no Oaks here in my area so how can I make that look happen? and yes, I wish for black water effect but not milky water....if that makes any sense.
Thank you again.
PS will manzanita be suitable and not acidify water as much as the malaysian bog wood I have in there now?

 
You're welcome.  Any leaves will acidify the water somewhat, and many aquarists buy the almond leaves.  I need to be careful with money, so as I have an oak tree in my garden and I have no issues with chemical pesticides or industry, collecting a bag or two of leaves in the autumn is simple.  Maple works, as will any hardwood (beech is often mentioned).  Just avoid any thick or waxy leaves and these are much more likely to contain sap/resin that could be poisonous.  The tint occurring from leaves, wood and peat is brownish, but the water will still be crystal clear.
 
I don';t know about the degree to which it will acidify the water, but in my experience the tannins released from Malaysian Driftwood are not as great as those from the lighter woods.  I only use the Malaysian in my tanks, along with some collected branches.  Initially there can be noticeable tinting, but it dissipates over time with water changes and the wood releases less.
 
With your water parameters, you won't need to fuss over any of this; the water will acidify solely from the biological processes because there is nothing to counter this (the GH/KH).  The tinting of the water is something you will need to encourage if you want it, and dried leaves are about the best method for this in your case.  They give out of course, as does any organic substance (wood, peat) over time.  I have leaves in three of my tanks, permanently, as substrate "cover" and I tend to add 3-4 every 2-3 weeks during the water change.  As they decompose, I sometimes take them out, sometimes just leave them to completely disintegrate.  Leaves are also an excellent food source for fry; studies have shown that fry in tanks with dried leaves develop significantly faster than without leaves.  The leaves host infusoria, an excellent first food.  I've had success raising Farlowella fry solely with oak leaves.
 
Byron.