Fish Tuberculosis?

[Suwa]

Warning: some slightly graphic photos

Please note that the fish died last night... But I need to figure out what it is and hope I don't infect another fish.


1. Water parameters:

The only thing I know is that out of the tap the pH of my water is 7, and my room is very warm so temperature in his bowl was 74-77

2. A full description of the fishes symptoms:

(am posting more detailed story below.) Red streaks in fins and loss of appetite that made me think ammonia poisoning, he got a bit better for a day and even ate, then suddenly had dropsy, and about 3 or 4 days later he developed white/grey lumps that started from under his skin, got big enough and became open sores. When he died his spine was curved so that his caudal was pointing up. His eyes never got cloudy and he never had fast breathing.

3. How often you do water changes and how much:

100% once a week, but I am busy and sometimes I do lose track (I feel like an idiot right now)


4. Any chemicals and treatments you add to the water:

Dechlorinator, aquarium salt, then epsom salt for the bloating, and some Betta Revive a few days before he died.

5. What tank mates are in the tank.

No tank mate, just some live plants, but I am worried I passed it on to me new fish

6. Tank size.

Unfiltered 1 gallon, no heater but warm (74-77 degrees) 1 gallon, was going to upgrade him to a 4 gallon planted tank still in the making

7. Finally Have you recently added any new fish?

No


To start with, I purchased a nice plakat betta from an LFS approximately two months ago. He was the first fish I had in years, named Charles. However, starting a week or a week and a half ago, he fell sick... I noticed some red streaks in his fins and his lack of appetite thought 'oh god its ammonia poisoning' and I felt like a fool and changed his water and started doing partial and whole changes often. He got a bit better for a day and the red streaks went away suddenly but then developed dropsy, he had full on pineconing. I added aquarium salt to his water and dropped the water level and he perked up a bit, managed to flare and even eat.

Suddenly his dropsy became almost lumpy, some places looked more swollen than others when viewed from the top. He stayed on his side more and had difficulty swimming. I removed the aquarium salt and put in epsom salt. The next day a grey lump appeared near the base of his caudal, and got bigger. A day or two later another lump appeared in exactly the same spot, but just on his other side, and within two days the first lump broke the skin leaving a white open sore that became a little fuzzy. He lasted for a day or two like that, stayed on his side a lot, and died last night. He did not have a curved spine when he was alive but when I found him dead the spine area near his caudal had curved up like an S. Despite all this he never clamped his fins (he kept all of them open when he moved), never had cloudy eyes or any other TB symptoms.

Here is a video taken on February 4th just before the grey lumps appeared, and he seemed to be getting better at this point.

Here are some photos:

I took photos of his dead body just because I felt it was necessary for some reason. You could see through his skin and it seemed like blood was pooling around the grey lumps.

Now the real problem right now is that I recently imported a female from Thailand to breed with Charles; He got sick literally the day after I purchased her and she only arrived this Wednesday, a day before he died. I'm afraid she is infected for the following reasons:

• when he first got sick, I got him an anubias plant (he also had Java Moss) and put it in his bowl, however I purchased some more plants to put in the 4 gallon I had purchased, along with some new driftwood. I took some Java Moss from his bowl as well as the Anubias, and bleached them as well as the new plants before putting them into the 4 gallon with driftwood.
• When I got the female, I added The Java Moss, Anubias and some other plants that didn't have direct contact with Charles from the 4 gallon to her bowl.
• I realized what Charles had was probably contagious so I bleached the net multiple times and thought that would be enough (I only suspected TB when he died, and apparently bleach is not enough)
• My new female has come into contact with the bleached net and bleached plants.
• Is the 4 gallon and its contents (driftwood and bleached plants) safe?
• Is my new female safe? I intended to get another male to breed her with but it turns out fish TB can take up to 6 months to manifest. I'm worried. She's healthy but in a mix of salt and Betta Revive when I had an overreaction to developing some extra slime coat.
• one of my lower eyelid has been feeling sore since yesterday. Worried.

Does anybody have any diagnosis or advice? I feel totally screwed and I wish someone could tell me what this is.

 

[KittyKat]

This does not really sound like TB to me, for now, I'll just respond to some points..

1. Water parameters:

The only thing I know is that out of the tap the pH of my water is 7, and my room is very warm so temperature in his bowl was 74-77

Without these, we can't make an educated guess at the source of the problem. Get a liquid test kit or take a sample to the LFS to be tested.

3. How often you do water changes and how much:

100% once a week, but I am busy and sometimes I do lose track (I feel like an idiot right now)

This may actually be harming the fish: the tap water parameters may be very different from the tank water parameters at the 7 day point. The shock of changing water hardness and pH can kill the fish on its own. I recommend that you decrease the water changes to 25% once per week and avoid doing anything over 25% unless there is an emergency.

4. Any chemicals and treatments you add to the water:

Dechlorinator, aquarium salt, then epsom salt for the bloating, and some Betta Revive a few days before he died.

How much salt did you add and how did you acclimatise the fish to it?

5. What tank mates are in the tank.

No tank mate, just some live plants, but I am worried I passed it on to me new fish

If you are worried about the disease being passed onto the new fish, why did you get a new fish before asking?

6. Tank size.

Unfiltered 1 gallon, no heater but warm (74-77 degrees) 1 gallon, was going to upgrade him to a 4 gallon planted tank still in the making

I consider this to be too small for the fish and I would say that there is a chance that this affected the fish. What filter do you have on it?

To start with, I purchased a nice plakat betta from an LFS approximately two months ago. He was the first fish I had in years, named Charles. However, starting a week or a week and a half ago, he fell sick... I noticed some red streaks in his fins and his lack of appetite thought 'oh god its ammonia poisoning' and I felt like a fool and changed his water and started doing partial and whole changes often. He got a bit better for a day and the red streaks went away suddenly but then developed dropsy, he had full on pineconing. I added aquarium salt to his water and dropped the water level and he perked up a bit, managed to flare and even eat.

Sounds like the problem was at least partially caused by prolonged ammonia exposure.

[*]I realized what Charles had was probably contagious so I bleached the net multiple times and thought that would be enough (I only suspected TB when he died, and apparently bleach is not enough)

How did you remove the bleach from the net? For next time, it is safer to just have one net per tank and bleach only for cleaning.

[*]Is my new female safe? I intended to get another male to breed her with but it turns out fish TB can take up to 6 months to manifest. I'm worried. She's healthy but in a mix of salt and Betta Revive when I had an overreaction to developing some extra slime coat.

Salt is not a fix-all solution, try not to use it unless you know that what the fish has can be cured by salt.

[*] one of my lower eyelid has been feeling sore since yesterday. Worried.

Did you prod your eye with your hands after doing something with the aquarium and before you washed them well with soap?

Does anybody have any diagnosis or advice? I feel totally screwed and I wish someone could tell me what this is.

Right now, I would say that it is bad fishkeeping. But we do need more information to make a correct diagnosis. Did you cycle the filter for the tank before you got the fish?

 

[AshP1986]

So sorry for your loss, he was a beautiful fish.

 

[Suwa]

Yes, I know it was bad fishkeeping. This was why I purchased the 4 gallon aquarium (plain aquarium, no filter, YET) : to build up a proper aquarium and spoil him. I've kept many bettas in bowls and have had a successful attempt at breeding, so I figured it would be okay temporarily until I got an aquarium together since he was a kind of fish that did not appear often and I could not pass up. We don't have a Petco here in my province to spoil us with fancy bettas.

I was (and still am) going to purchase a test kit, filter and heater for this 4 gallon and cycle it properly, if it isn't going to affect my future fish. I haven't yet purchased these things because I am a college student on a budget, and our prices in Canada are nearly double the US prices for practically all aquarium equipment and I only recently got a job. It probably sounds like a big excuse, but its the reason I have. My father works in the US and I have asked him to bring things back to me (test kit, heater and filter, plant substrate) when he returns since everything is much cheaper there, and again, I still intend to do so.

I can tell you missed a few details so I'll reiterate some things.

• The fish has already passed. I disposed of the aquarium water right away, so I can't get you a reading on the parameters even from the LFS But after the first signs of illness it was 100% every two days with partials in between, and he had Java Moss which should have helped keep the water better.
• Quote: "Unfiltered 1 gallon, no heater but warm (74-77 degrees) 1 gallon, was going to upgrade him to a 4 gallon planted tank still in the making". I know its too small, hence the 4 gallon. Also this is why I did 100% water changes: there is no filter, so it is obviously not cycled either.
• I went with the 1 Tbsp per 5 gallon rule on the box (so 3 ml per gallon) and measured it out with a handy measuring cap from my dechlorinator (it is marked in mls). I added it slowly to the tank and if anything, underdosed to be safe.
• I did not get the new fish before asking. I purchased the female before Charles even got sick. Quote: "He got sick literally the day after I purchased her and she only arrived this Wednesday". She was an Aquabid purchase imported from Thailand and arrived long after I paid for her. Even when he first got sick, I was expecting him to recover and did not believe it to be contagious or fatal until I saw his curved spine when he died.
• Quote: "She's healthy but in a mix of salt and Betta Revive when I had an overreaction to developing some extra slime coat." I worded it pretty badly but I saw she had strings coming from the tips of her fins. I medicated immediately in case of fungus (which salt and Betta Revive are supposed to help with) and realized afterwards that she was merely overproducing her slimecoat. Or at least, I hope that is what it is.
• The net was never used on Charles after being bleached. I bleached it, rinsed it for a good half hour (I am incredibly paranoid) let it dry, rinsed it again, and let it dry; it has only been used on the female.

Those are my re-explanations. Yes, I know it was bad fish keeping, but I never had problems with my methods before and was going to change said methods anyways; I intended for it to be temporary and was setting up to spoil him.

If you don't see it as fish TB, would you or anybody else really be able to pull any other diagnosis from this?

So sorry for your loss, he was a beautiful fish.

Thanks, he really was. I was looking forward to spoiling him and breeding him, he was a character.

 

[FishBlast]

I've never had such a problem with any fish so far with pretty much same kind of water changes/non-filtering long ago. Maybe different water PH makes a big difference. My PH is around 7.42.
I'm trying to learn from pretty much everything that's in this section for future references.
Sorry for your loss, I've also had Bettas before and they lived for about 2 years, but changing water temp killed them...

 

[Suwa]

The thing is, neither did I I've never encountered anything like this. He was kept warmer than my previous fish as well. He's a lot fancier than anything I've ever had so maybe he was just a lot more susceptible to diseases from his background, I don't know. I just hope its not TB, I'm looking up some other diseases that might be a match.

 

[FishBlast]

The thing is, neither did I I've never encountered anything like this. He was kept warmer than my previous fish as well. He's a lot fancier than anything I've ever had so maybe he was just a lot more susceptible to diseases from his background, I don't know. I just hope its not TB, I'm looking up some other diseases that might be a match.

Well, I have no heater (never had any in fish tanks, just turtle pond) and fish probably weren't hurt due to less heat and made ammonia less toxic.

But having no heater seems to present a problem as well, such as ich (never had anything like that in all these years but it's a risk) and probably stress for fish that like warmer climate.

 

[Rummynose]

In a filtered tank a 50% water change once a week is advisable, or 2 times 30% if you have drastic ph differences between tap water and tank water.

In an unfiltered tank doing 100% once a week if you remember is just not enough. Especially in a small 1 gallon container!!! You would have to do a 100% water change every day to keep your Betta healthy. He had no chance! He died from organ failure! The ammonia build up in his tank is what poisoned him, the prolongued exposure to the high level of toxin damaged his organs.

In my opinion he did not have any dangerous disease like TB, just bad living conditions!

Until you have a bigger tank, which hopefully will have a filter and a heater, you need to do daily water changes for any new fish you are keeping in this 1 gallon container! The smaller the body of water the more detrimental are any mistakes! A 10 gallon would really be a much better way for you to keep a Betta! There's a lot more water to dilute any mistakes you could be making in the keeping of water!!!

 

[FishBlast]

In a filtered tank a 50% water change once a week is advisable, or 2 times 30% if you have drastic ph differences between tap water and tank water.

In an unfiltered tank doing 100% once a week if you remember is just not enough. Especially in a small 1 gallon container!!! You would have to do a 100% water change every day to keep your Betta healthy. He had no chance! He died from organ failure! The ammonia build up in his tank is what poisoned him, the prolongued exposure to the high level of toxin damaged his organs.

In my opinion he did not have any dangerous disease like TB, just bad living conditions!

Until you have a bigger tank, which hopefully will have a filter and a heater, you need to do daily water changes for any new fish you are keeping in this 1 gallon container! The smaller the body of water the more detrimental are any mistakes! A 10 gallon would really be a much better way for you to keep a Betta! There's a lot more water to dilute any mistakes you could be making in the keeping of water!!!

That's for a cycled filtered tank, right?

 

[Rummynose]

In a filtered tank a 50% water change once a week is advisable, or 2 times 30% if you have drastic ph differences between tap water and tank water.

In an unfiltered tank doing 100% once a week if you remember is just not enough. Especially in a small 1 gallon container!!! You would have to do a 100% water change every day to keep your Betta healthy. He had no chance! He died from organ failure! The ammonia build up in his tank is what poisoned him, the prolongued exposure to the high level of toxin damaged his organs.

In my opinion he did not have any dangerous disease like TB, just bad living conditions!

Until you have a bigger tank, which hopefully will have a filter and a heater, you need to do daily water changes for any new fish you are keeping in this 1 gallon container! The smaller the body of water the more detrimental are any mistakes! A 10 gallon would really be a much better way for you to keep a Betta! There's a lot more water to dilute any mistakes you could be making in the keeping of water!!!

That's for a cycled filtered tank, right?

Yes!

 

[KittyKat]

I was (and still am) going to purchase a test kit, filter and heater for this 4 gallon and cycle it properly, if it isn't going to affect my future fish. I haven't yet purchased these things because I am a college student on a budget, and our prices in Canada are nearly double the US prices for practically all aquarium equipment and I only recently got a job. It probably sounds like a big excuse, but its the reason I have. My father works in the US and I have asked him to bring things back to me (test kit, heater and filter, plant substrate) when he returns since everything is much cheaper there, and again, I still intend to do so.

I recommend that next time you make sure to have the tank set up and ready *before* going for fish. I do know how difficult that is as I had to do the same when I was younger, but it really is safer for the fish in the long run.

[*]The fish has already passed. I disposed of the aquarium water right away, so I can't get you a reading on the parameters even from the LFS But after the first signs of illness it was 100% every two days with partials in between, and he had Java Moss which should have helped keep the water better.

Yes, I got that it passed away. Did you match the water temperature and dechlorinate it for those 100% water changes?
Plants do help with ammonia and nitrate, but unless the tank was so thick with them that you couldn't see front to back, it wouldn't have been that much help.

[*]Quote: "Unfiltered 1 gallon, no heater but warm (74-77 degrees) 1 gallon, was going to upgrade him to a 4 gallon planted tank still in the making". I know its too small, hence the 4 gallon. Also this is why I did 100% water changes: there is no filter, so it is obviously not cycled either.

The 4 gallon would have made a good home for him, but would still have been too small for breeding (high risk of the female being killed in a tank that small). The safest way to change larger amounts of water (for example in an unfiltered tank) is to do the water changes ever 1-3 days. A 100% water change after a week may be as dangerous to the fish as no water change at all. Ideally, I would have recommended a 25-50% water change every day in an unfiltered tank.

[*]I went with the 1 Tbsp per 5 gallon rule on the box (so 3 ml per gallon) and measured it out with a handy measuring cap from my dechlorinator (it is marked in mls). I added it slowly to the tank and if anything, underdosed to be safe.

Salt should be pre-mixed with some tank water before being added to the tank because some fish are stupid enough to try eating it, which will harm them. In terms of amount, that is a "standard" amount to use and should not have caused any problems.

[*]Quote: "She's healthy but in a mix of salt and Betta Revive when I had an overreaction to developing some extra slime coat." I worded it pretty badly but I saw she had strings coming from the tips of her fins. I medicated immediately in case of fungus (which salt and Betta Revive are supposed to help with) and realized afterwards that she was merely overproducing her slimecoat. Or at least, I hope that is what it is.

Can you get a photo? Any improvement? For reference, fungus should not look like strings.. it's usually more like a fur coating.

[*]The net was never used on Charles after being bleached. I bleached it, rinsed it for a good half hour (I am incredibly paranoid) let it dry, rinsed it again, and let it dry; it has only been used on the female.

That should have been enough.. for future reference, one can neutralise bleach by soaking in mild vinegar solution.

If you don't see it as fish TB, would you or anybody else really be able to pull any other diagnosis from this?

I would say that a number of different factors caused him stress, which in turn weakened the immune system and allowed a number of different secondary infections. The infections were probably bacterial (my recommended treatment for these is unfortunately not available in the Americas) and possibly too severe to cure. I do recommend that you get and keep on hand a generic anti-microbial (this means anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, etc.) medication and an anti-whitespot. You can and should disinfect all of the equipment which you used for him, and once that is done, you should be able to use it again.