Fish (& other animals) know when its time to go

[Deleted member 149562]

I am absolutely convinced that all animals know when it is time to stop and fish are no different.

If you watch a fish closely, you can tell when it has reached the end of its life.

As an example, one of my female Pepper Cories this morning.

She was well over 5 years old and had many successful spawnings in that time. She was extra hyperactive all through her life, she was playtime 24/7.

From late last week I noticed her slowing down....not alot but just a hint that she was not quite right in herself. I watched her very carefully, there wasn't any outward signs of ill health, she was still spawning...albeit not as hyper....she was still at the front of the food queue, still poo'ing normally, her body was absolutely fine, no injuries or anything remotely problematic.

My aquarium is quite deep at 50cm from substrate to surface. A couple of days ago she was having a hard time reaching the surface, but by using plants she managed it and was then darting around like her old self. I wanted to get a closer look at her so yesterday during water change I tried to catch her and she was having absolutely none of it. She would not let me anywhere close to her. Rather than stress her out I left her alone but continued to watch her. She mastered the art of sitting on the top can of the filter, with nose just below the surface. She wasn't 100% obviously but at the same time she was determined to act as normally as she could.

This morning after feeding everyone...and she had a good breakfast....I noticed a real change in her body language and behaviour. She had almost never come to the front glass in all the time I have owned her, she always spawned and played at the sides and back of the aquarium. This morning she came to the front glass, high up though not quite at the surface. She hung there a while, not moving. I went over to the aquarium, which would normally have her scurrying off into a hide, but this morning she stayed where she was. I went to the kitchen to get a net and jug, came back to the aquarium and she was still there. So I gently lifted the lid expecting her to scurry off.....she didn't. She let me place the net beside her, I didn't put it over her, and she quietly slipped into the net on her own and by the time I had transferred her to the jug of aquarium water, she passed away.

I checked her all over just to make sure there wasn't any sign of injury or ill health...there was no bloating, no body damage, no barbel damage, nothing whatsoever to explain what the problem was other than she was getting on in years. Peppers generally have around the 5 to 7 year lifespan, some last longer others don't reach 5...she was closer to 6 than 5. She knew that it was time to go, it was obvious by her behaviour that she knew.

I have seen this same sort of behaviour in humans before the pass away...and I do believe that humans and all animals know when its their time to stop.

Has anyone else experienced this sort of behaviour from their fish (or any animal), that you had a feeling that they were on their way out?

 

[GaryE]

It's hard to get into the head of another species, but it's becoming very clear that the nervous system evolved early, and that with things like pain, we all can understand each other to a degree. That old 'fish don't feel pain' was convenient when I used to go fishing, but nothing backs it up.
It seems basic to me that an ailing fish would feel ill, and that would show. In the wild, a fish in distress is eaten. In tanks, they get to live a longer period of decline, but we all reach that point where we know things are going west. I've had quite a few fish try very hard to stretch it out and keep going.
The longer I keep fish, or hang around with dogs, the more I sense we are not that different, although we are. We share some basic operating systems. I don't think they sit around worrying like we do, or make up mythologies or think like humans. But they do feel things we do, and vice versa. Some people I've known knew their time was up, and others didn't. I'm not sure fish ever get to be in that first, aware group, but I'm certain they know when they can't overcome problems.
My computer is under attack from Windows 11, which it simply can't run. I know it doesn't feel pain every time Microsoft tells me to replace it, and it doesn't feel relief now that the attacks are subsiding. It has great internal systems, but it's a machine. I don't think the same is true of fish, or of us. Animals feel emotion, although it is very hard for us to read with the primitive tools we have. That additional element added to a nervous system and a brain that started evolving before we were all that different makes me stop and look twice pretty often. I really wish I could be around to see what we'll have learned 200 years from now.

 

[gilpi]

IMO, human emotion is a distance away from animals but to stay in topic, yes, animals do know and feel when it's their time, at least I can speak for cats. Our last cat hid from us for about a week, found a cozy dark place to spend it's last days, no matter how many times I would bring it out, force feed and try to rub her and make her feel comfortable, she would eventually go back to her dark place not eating or drinking and not showing signs of pain. This went on for a few days till she passed.

 

[Uberhoust]

@wasmewasntit I agree with your assessment. I have always felt that animals seem to know when it is their time. About 6 months ago I had an ornate tetra that wasn't looking well, but every other fish was looking good. She initially avoided my attempts to catch her so I left her alone, the next day she was looking worse but this time she just let me scoop her up, similar to your account.

I don't know the exact cause but I expect they are just tired of the pain and discomfort, and no longer care. Before they get to this point they fight to live.

As I get older I have a much better understanding of how pain and discomfort affects your life and your desire to do anything, there is a difference between chronic and acute pain. Other animals might not be able to reflect on their situation, but I haven't seen anything in animal behavior that would suggest that they feel pain any differently then we do.

 

[GaryE]

IMO, human emotion is a distance away from animals but to stay in topic,

Human emotions for sure. But studies of nervous systems in fish show all the basic pain systems we have, and a number of animals (not fish) that have been subject to brain scans show activity in the emotional centres we use, depending on the stimulus. A remarkable number of mammals respond to anti-depressants as humans do. It's cool stuff.

 

[SomethingsFishy24]

They do. What is difficult though for people is the ability to read those signs. I have seen many animals in their last moments, more times than not, long past due. They look so miserable and are often in poor condition. Quality of life involves more good days than bad, older animals will have bad days but they should not be consistent. Ability to move about their space, even if it is not as energetically as before. Eating and drinking without GI Upset. Interest in their people and things they love. Ability to go out to potty( Obviously cats/dogs/mammals). If one or more of these areas is compromised for an extended length of time, quality of life is drastically impaired. No one looks more defeated than a dog who can no longer go out to potty, making a mess in the house when they know they need to go out, just as they have been taught and expected to their whole life because that doggo is the bestest girl or boy. The saddest eyes belong to kidney failure cats, they are so sunken, their bodies very frail. I love animals, I understand their owners love them too, but the most loving thing anyone can do is let them go before they begin to suffer.

 

[Deleted member 149562]

One other thing I noticed when the Pepper female was showing signs of trouble and right through to the day before she let go.

The other fish were rallying her...even the male Peppers were doing it, but not to get her to spawn, their body language wasn't spawning language, they stayed by her side almost escorting instead of the usual bullish barging behaviour. The rest of the fish, especially the Danio's, would hurry to her when she was having trouble reaching the surface, not to nip or anything like that but they were trying to help her up and herd her onto the closest leaf.

There was a dramatic shift yesterday morning. After breakfast, they all backed away from her, giving her as much space as they could. They totally avoided the quarter of the aquarium where she was, and stayed away til after she had put herself into the net.

The behaviour and body language of the fish in the aquarium is fascinating to watch. I think this is why I get so annoyed with those who say "well its only a fish". Yes they are fish but they have almost identical ways to speaking through their behaviour and body language as any other living being whether it be a dog, cat or even human. There are behavioural traits that you can, if you sit and watch them, that you can identify with any other animal. My other fish gave her space when she was dying, when I removed her from the aquarium they stopped what they were doing until she was away. The activity level was significantly lower than normal for the rest of the day.

This morning everyone was back to their usual silly selves again.

Fish are far more intelligent and expressive than many people realise. You just have to take the time to sit and study them.

 

[emeraldking]

I am also convinced that animals do sense when they're close to death. If I look at certain pets of ours before they've died, there were signs on how they've reacted. But I've also noticed that humans have the same sense. At least, with certain people from my own circle, they just knew.

 

[DoubleDutch]

I am absolutely convinced that all animals know when it is time to stop and fish are no different.

If you watch a fish closely, you can tell when it has reached the end of its life.

As an example, one of my female Pepper Cories this morning.

She was well over 5 years old and had many successful spawnings in that time. She was extra hyperactive all through her life, she was playtime 24/7.

From late last week I noticed her slowing down....not alot but just a hint that she was not quite right in herself. I watched her very carefully, there wasn't any outward signs of ill health, she was still spawning...albeit not as hyper....she was still at the front of the food queue, still poo'ing normally, her body was absolutely fine, no injuries or anything remotely problematic.

My aquarium is quite deep at 50cm from substrate to surface. A couple of days ago she was having a hard time reaching the surface, but by using plants she managed it and was then darting around like her old self. I wanted to get a closer look at her so yesterday during water change I tried to catch her and she was having absolutely none of it. She would not let me anywhere close to her. Rather than stress her out I left her alone but continued to watch her. She mastered the art of sitting on the top can of the filter, with nose just below the surface. She wasn't 100% obviously but at the same time she was determined to act as normally as she could.

This morning after feeding everyone...and she had a good breakfast....I noticed a real change in her body language and behaviour. She had almost never come to the front glass in all the time I have owned her, she always spawned and played at the sides and back of the aquarium. This morning she came to the front glass, high up though not quite at the surface. She hung there a while, not moving. I went over to the aquarium, which would normally have her scurrying off into a hide, but this morning she stayed where she was. I went to the kitchen to get a net and jug, came back to the aquarium and she was still there. So I gently lifted the lid expecting her to scurry off.....she didn't. She let me place the net beside her, I didn't put it over her, and she quietly slipped into the net on her own and by the time I had transferred her to the jug of aquarium water, she passed away.

I checked her all over just to make sure there wasn't any sign of injury or ill health...there was no bloating, no body damage, no barbel damage, nothing whatsoever to explain what the problem was other than she was getting on in years. Peppers generally have around the 5 to 7 year lifespan, some last longer others don't reach 5...she was closer to 6 than 5. She knew that it was time to go, it was obvious by her behaviour that she knew.

I have seen this same sort of behaviour in humans before the pass away...and I do believe that humans and all animals know when its their time to stop.

Has anyone else experienced this sort of behaviour from their fish (or any animal), that you had a feeling that they were on their way out?

Uhhhh Peppers can get 20+

 

[itiwhetu]

Uhhhh Peppers can get 20+

How often, I really get annoyed with these 20+, 30+ figures quoted on this site it is not the norm. The normal life span of any fish in your tank is around five years.

 

[Naughts]

. The normal life span of any fish in your tank is around five years.

You have to look at the species for lifespans. You can't compare killifish and goldfish, for example.

 

[itiwhetu]

You have to look at the species for lifespans. You can't compare killifish and goldfish, for example.

The 20–30-year thing is just silly. Fish live around 5 years in a tank. Why would you want to live any longer in a glass box?

 

[Naughts]

The glass box is a whole other question. But since they are already in one, let's hope they can have the best life possible, quantity as well as quality.

 

[Deleted member 149562]

On the argument/debate about aquarium lifespan.

If you can nuture a fish of any species to live more than the accredited average of five to seven years then great...however...you also must be sure that the quality of life is maintained to the maximum.

My Pepper was an unknown age when she arrived with me, so her end stage age can only be approximated. She had been in my aquarium for a little over 5 years and when she arrived she was of a mature size, not the usual juvenile size as so often seen with bought fish.

So in my judgement she was over 5 years old since that is how long she had lived with me, but at the same time she arrived as a mature female, so she was likely closer to 6, maybe even more than that...there is no way of knowing for sure.

My Pepper was showing all the signs that she was aging...she was not ill or diseased or injured....her colouration was good, her activity levels were failing over the space of a week to the extent that she needed help to breach the surface and it was distressing her. Her distress showed as panic in her trying to breach the surface and not getting there....remember my aquarium is 50cm from substrate to water surface, that is a long way for an older fish which is why she would stop and start via leaves.

Her quality of life was declining and she decided to call it quits. I did not force net her, I thought about it but she still had the energy to scurry away into her usual hide. Only on the day that she died did she allow me to approach her and again I did not force net her, she approached the net for herself and basically flopped into it (which is so opposite to Cory behaviour).

So in regard to the age of fish...yes there might be far older fish and some might well live to a ripe old age but insofar as aquarium lifespan when you do not know the age of the fish when it arrived and you have the fish in your care for a known number of years, then the 5 to 7 year average is generally the case. Above all else imho, the quality of life is far more important and that goes with the age of a fish and absolutely goes with the water chemistry that you expect a fish to live.

 

[DoubleDutch]

On the argument/debate about aquarium lifespan.

If you can nuture a fish of any species to live more than the accredited average of five to seven years then great...however...you also must be sure that the quality of life is maintained to the maximum.

My Pepper was an unknown age when she arrived with me, so her end stage age can only be approximated. She had been in my aquarium for a little over 5 years and when she arrived she was of a mature size, not the usual juvenile size as so often seen with bought fish.

So in my judgement she was over 5 years old since that is how long she had lived with me, but at the same time she arrived as a mature female, so she was likely closer to 6, maybe even more than that...there is no way of knowing for sure.

My Pepper was showing all the signs that she was aging...she was not ill or diseased or injured....her colouration was good, her activity levels were failing over the space of a week to the extent that she needed help to breach the surface and it was distressing her. Her distress showed as panic in her trying to breach the surface and not getting there....remember my aquarium is 50cm from substrate to water surface, that is a long way for an older fish which is why she would stop and start via leaves.

Her quality of life was declining and she decided to call it quits. I did not force net her, I thought about it but she still had the energy to scurry away into her usual hide. Only on the day that she died did she allow me to approach her and again I did not force net her, she approached the net for herself and basically flopped into it (which is so opposite to Cory behaviour).

So in regard to the age of fish...yes there might be far older fish and some might well live to a ripe old age but insofar as aquarium lifespan when you do not know the age of the fish when it arrived and you have the fish in your care for a known number of years, then the 5 to 7 year average is generally the case. Above all else imho, the quality of life is far more important and that goes with the age of a fish and absolutely goes with the water chemistry that you expect a fish to live.

As said the average lifespan of Corys isn't 5 - 7 years if they are thriving as mentioned in your other thread. If they are tolerating as you call the opposite it.

The mentioned behaviour is often seen in dieing Pepperds. I don't think it is cause they geel the end coming but simply cause they aren't feelibg well. Hoovering, hanging in the plants and on the surface. I don't exactly know what is causing it but could be an internal bacterial infection. What I did notice is that it often occures after a long hot period. As coolwater Corys maybe they can tollerate such temps for a long period.