Fish-less Cycle Bo-bo

[BobbyBray]

So after over a week of waiting on my fish-less cycle, and getting 0 results, and decided to go back and re-read the post and see if I missed anything. Sure enough, it turns out my ammonia has surfactants in it, and yes it does foam a bit when I shake the bottle. A quick dictionary / wikipedia search simply shows that surfactants help reduce the surface tension of liquids.... I have no idea how that affects my aquarium.

If someone would be so kind as to explain why its bad to add surfactants to my system, and if I will now need to start totally over, or if a 70-90% water change and new anit-surfactant ammonia will get me on the right track.

As always, thanks for the advice.

 

[BobbyBray]

Did some more homework, and it looks like a surfactant is just a type of soap, and thus most likely not good for the tank. Its late here, so I don't have time to go out and look for any other ammonia, or drain the tank tonight. I guess I'm just stumped as to whether I should drain all the water and start over with non--surfactant ammonia or not?

I'm so tempted to just get 3-5 zebra danios and cycle the tank that way.... must resist... new tank syndrome!

 

[Truck]

a fish in cycle is not cruel if you do it properly. but for the soap issue, i would drain the tank but keep the filter bacs wet, and giv it a clean then refill

 

[waterdrop]

Its an interesting question, the extent of risk associated with surfactants in a cleaning product ammonia solution. I know that soaps are not good in fish tanks but I don't know the reason why or what the variability of the risk would be.

I've seen on TFF, a number of times, the admonition that soap will kill your fish. I don't know the reason why. (anyone?)

Soap is one example, among many, of a surfactant. So its not necessarily clear that if soap kills fish, that all surfactants will kill fish. And the question of the extent to which any surfactants would persist through the process of replacing the water and rinsing the gravel is unclear also, I would think.

Not knowing is just not knowing. One could see it possibly going ok with the steps truck describes (trying to keep the bacteria, but replacing the water.) But one could also imagine the surfactants clinging to the filter media and the gravel, since that's what they're designed to do. Think of how you use a sponge in the kitchen sink!

I guess it would ultimately come down to your decision Bobby, whether you wanted to take a chance that the problem stuff wouldn't be around and clinging enough to cause some sort of problem later or whether you wanted to take the other kind of hit and just start over from scratch, which also would be a large setback, ugh!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[tom_os]

surfactant is also in the human lungs

 

[OldMan47]

Surfactant is actually not soap, it is a broader class of chemicals. Technically it is any chemical that helps water penetrate the surface of a material to make that material easier for the water to dissolve, it acts on the surface tension of the dirt. That does include soap but also includes any of the common and not so common detergents that are added to things like laundry soap. If you can name the specific surfactant in the ammonia, it would likely be possible to say with some assurance what the effect would be. All chemicals in common use can be found in on-line databases if you are persistent enough in the search. Some simple surfactants, like trisodium phosphate are easily removed with water changes to dilute them and fish could even do fine with small traces in their water. I am not up on all the chemistry involved in modern surfactants so for most I have no idea what it would take to remove them or what the specific hazards would be. It is one of the reasons that we try to avoid them.

 

[BobbyBray]

Unfortunately it doesn't give any sort of hint as to what specific surfactant is in the ammonia I purchased, and I can't seem to find a break down anywhere online either. I guess I'll try buying different ammonia and hope that a large water change will get the job done...

 

[BobbyBray]

Disaster! So far every place I've check in town doesn't have pure / raw ammonia. There's one chance left, a local plumbing supplies business, but they're closed today. Any suggestions if I can't find the correct ammonia? Do it the old fashion way with some 'hardy' fish and monitor the toxin levels closely?

 

[Paavn]

since surfactant just increases permeability or solubility so to say, it can be harmful in that it would make the other polutants in the water more easily absorbed into the fish, but as long as you use a dechlorinator you should be fine. i used ammonia with the surfactant in it as well - it will cycle your tank

 

[OldMan47]

The only sure bet that I am aware of in the US is the Ace / True Value hardware store. I don't really know if there are any in Alaska but they are fairly common in the lower 48.

 

[BobbyBray]

Yea, we had some down in Michigan, but none up here in Alaska. There is another local hardware store I could try calling tomorrow when they're open.

I guess I was under the impression that the surfactant itself was poisonous to fish, but from what little I understand of the chemistry aspect of this subject, what Paavn says makes sense. Perhaps I won't worry about it so much if I can't find a better ammonia product.

On a different tangent, I've added some extra filter media to my smaller, but fully cycled, 10 gallon tank (the cycling one is 29 gallons). Any idea how long it'd take for some bacteria to grow on that media so I can attempt transplanting them? 1 or 2 weeks maybe? Anyway to check other than looking for discoloration?

 

[waterdrop]

In our area it turned out that ammonia was available in our large chain grocery store.

By "adding extra media to your existing tank" I assume you mean either in the existing filter or as a small new filter. Media needs to be inside a filter to mature significantly and and with any speed. If it is in a filter then a few cells will begin to populate it very quickly and it would probably have pretty many (ie. there might be enough that it could be used to "seed" some other filter, but not cycle it) after 2 weeks. We usually guesstimate that it takes a month for a new sponge before it would behave like cycled media I think.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[BobbyBray]

Ah, I didn't realize it had to be inside the existing filter. I just added a small filter into the box that houses the filter and pump. The only filter that the 1 gallon tank has is the kind with carbon inside it, is there any easy way to remove part of the filter on one of those? Or would I have better luck removing the entire thing and keeping a close eye on the toxins while a brand new filter matures?

I'd like to speed up my tank, but not at the sacrifice of the other tank.

 

[OldMan47]

A way that has worked for me in the past is to clean an old filter in the new tank and let the stuff that comes off during cleaning jump start the new filter. It is not quite as good as a filter clone but for me it has shortened the time for a new filter's fishless cycle to as little as a week. That beats the heck out of taking a month or more before you get cycled.

 

[BobbyBray]

That seems simple enough, maybe I'll give that a try.