Fish In Cycle

[ikan]

HI tehre,

Before anyone starts shouting at me, I'm doing a fish-in cycling because my lps told me it's fine to do it as my water parameters were all 0.

My tank is a 48l tropical freshwater. Fishbox 48. It has life plants, air stone and the water filter that came with it.

It was set up and left to run for 3 days. Brought water sample to lps and all was 0 so they let me buy 5 neon tetras.
All 5 tetras were fine until the 4th day when i woke up and found them gasping for air so i did a 25% water change and added some interpet ammonia remover (only half a dose for my 48l).
Fishes were fine after about an hour.

It's been 6 days since that and have been doing 10% water change since then. I use tapsafe for the new water. The fishes look really happy and are even beginning to split from the school every now and again.

Got my test kit (API Master) yesterday, 6 days after the ''incident'' and tested my water parameters and the ammonia 0.25, nitrite 0, nitrate 10-20, ph 8.2
Brought some sample water to lps for them to test (just to make sure that i was doing it right) and the results they got there was spot on.

My question is, was the ''incident'' on the 4th day my ammonia spike? if yes, how come my nitrite is still reading 0? my nitrate reading is between 10-20 so surely there must be some nitrite which has been converted to nitrate no?

Is it safe to introduce more fish now? i'm thinking of adding 2 more different species of the small tetras. maybe another 4 and 4. Should I get 4 of the same species, wait for mini cycle to settle and then addd the other 4? or should i still stick to 2, 2, 2 and 2? I know tetras need to be kept in groups of at least 4 or 5 so am worried about buying 2 at a time.

Please help.

 

[KittyKat]

A cycle usually takes 4-6 weeks. If you are in day 6/7, your ammonia has not spiked yet. Your best option is to feed ever other day only and keep ammonia and nitrite well below 0.25ppm as neons are fragile fish.

If you honestly care for your fish, you will do the above and will NOT buy any more fish until ammonia and nitrite have remained at 0 for one week, while you feed the fish every day. Once your filter is completely cycled (so expect another 4-6 weeks from now, including the qualifying week), it should be safe to add 4-5 small fish at a time, provided you increase feeding gently.

On the other hand, you need to consider your stocking: the tank is very small. Realistically, you should be looking at 6 or so neon sized fish, then maybe some shrimp or a gourami and that's pretty much it. Normally, I would advise 8-10 espei rasboras or ember tetras, but now that you have neons, best stick with them.

Also if you get more plants, they will ease the cycle, but it can take longer.

Please keep in mind: ammonia and nitrites over 0.25ppm will harm most fish permanently.. neons are much more fragile usually than most fish.

 

[Caprichoso]

I agree with Kitty Kat, don't add any more fish for the moment. Now the problem you might face is that if any of them die, they will not be in a proper school. This may lead the remaining fish to become timid and not do very well. Just be patient and before you know it, your tank will be cycled and ready for more fish.
Best of luck

 

[ikan]

Thanks guys. I am already feeding every other day and only a small and i mean tiny portion(they finish everything up in less than a minute).
How do I get readings under 0.25? it goes from 0 to 0.25 do you mean i should do a 20% water change everytime it gets to 0.25? changed 20% yesterday and ammonia was still at 0.25....again 0 nitrite and 10 nitrate. can you explain the 0 nitrite and 10 nitrate? i thought nitrate is a by product of nitrite oxidation?
i've noticed yesterday that i have brown algae on my ornament. is this a good or bad sign?

 

[Aqua Tom]

Thanks guys. I am already feeding every other day and only a small and i mean tiny portion(they finish everything up in less than a minute).
How do I get readings under 0.25? it goes from 0 to 0.25 do you mean i should do a 20% water change everytime it gets to 0.25? changed 20% yesterday and ammonia was still at 0.25....again 0 nitrite and 10 nitrate. can you explain the 0 nitrite and 10 nitrate? i thought nitrate is a by product of nitrite oxidation?
i've noticed yesterday that i have brown algae on my ornament. is this a good or bad sign?

Because of the small size of the tank I would advise 50% water changes rather than 20%.
My tank is 180 litres & i still do a 50% water change once in a while, takes ages but yours should be doable in 1/4 of the time.


The Nitrates are probably already present in your tapwater. Heve you done a full tapwater test?
Tapwater of Nitrate 10ppm is nothing to worry about (mine is 40+ppm).
Stop testing for Nitrate now as you are just wasting reagent & just concentrate on ammonia & nitrites.

 

[Skins]

Thanks guys. I am already feeding every other day and only a small and i mean tiny portion(they finish everything up in less than a minute).
How do I get readings under 0.25? it goes from 0 to 0.25 do you mean i should do a 20% water change everytime it gets to 0.25? changed 20% yesterday and ammonia was still at 0.25....again 0 nitrite and 10 nitrate. can you explain the 0 nitrite and 10 nitrate? i thought nitrate is a by product of nitrite oxidation?
i've noticed yesterday that i have brown algae on my ornament. is this a good or bad sign?

Because of the small size of the tank I would advise 50% water changes rather than 20%.
My tank is 180 litres & i still do a 50% water change once in a while, takes ages but yours should be doable in 1/4 of the time.


The Nitrates are probably already present in your tapwater. Heve you done a full tapwater test?
Tapwater of Nitrate 10ppm is nothing to worry about (mine is 40+ppm).
Stop testing for Nitrate now as you are just wasting reagent & just concentrate on ammonia & nitrites.

I agree with Tom, as for the brown algea thats a result of ammonia+light=algea. Its only cosmetic, and can be just wiped off when you service your tank next.

Keith.

 

[ikan]

Hi all,
Just did 50% water change and re-tested after about 2 hours.
Ammonia 0 (was just about 0.25 before water change..colour closer to 0 than 0.5)
Nitrite 0

Also tested tap water and Nitrate was 5.

How will I know if my tank is cycled?

 

[KittyKat]

How will I know if my tank is cycled?

Your ammonia and nitrite will *always* be 0ppm, even if you feed the fish one or twice per day (as much as they can eat in 30-60 seconds).

 

[symon_say]

You don't have to do water changes daily, keep and eye on your ammonia and nitrite and if you seen then getting to 0.25 then do the water change, but don't let it go over there, if you do water changes without watching how those goes up, you won't notice when your tank is cycled.

I had to do a fish-in cycle after my fishless cycle, and i was able to go 2 days without water change, but if i go over that i lose at least 1 fish.

 

[KittyKat]

You don't have to do water changes daily, keep and eye on your ammonia and nitrite and if you seen then getting to 0.25 then do the water change, but don't let it go over there, if you do water changes without watching how those goes up, you won't notice when your tank is cycled.

Because neons are usually fragile, I would still recommend keeping ammonia and nitrite well below 0.25.

I had to do a fish-in cycle after my fishless cycle, and i was able to go 2 days without water change, but if i go over that i lose at least 1 fish.

If a fish does not die, that does not mean there is no permanent damage done which can cause health problems later on and shorten the fish's natural life span.

 

[symon_say]

I know what you say, i just say, you have to do water change on the basis of the biload your fish put in the tank. If fish are small they will put just a little, and you can do water changes less often, but always before it goes over 0.25.

 

[waterdrop]

I know what you say, i just say, you have to do water change on the basis of the biload your fish put in the tank. If fish are small they will put just a little, and you can do water changes less often, but always before it goes over 0.25.

While I agree that this meets the guidelines we usually espouse here in the beginners forum when we discuss fish-in technique Symon, I'm afraid I have to agree with KK on this one. We are trying to fishless cycle with fish that normally should not be introduced to a tank less than 6 months old for maxiumum health prospects, so we want to lower the chemical stress as much as possible. Since the tank is quite small, it's not that much more work to make the water changes more frequent.

This case is also interesting from the standpoint of being yet another of several recent ones where we see not just bad advice from the LFS but advice that is almost textbook opposite of what we would give: The store has implied to the beginner that readings of zero ammonia and nitrite in a newly filled tank are somehow a positive sign, when in fact we all know this is indicative of... Nothing! It simply means no cycling process whatsoever has even started and that the tap water does not contain these substances. The advice that this is somehow good is one of the worst things you could do for learning purposes. Likewise, the shop has not only allowed neons to go out to an immature tank but has even recommended them for cycling, something we don't really like to do to -any- fish, regardless of it's hardiness now that fishless cycling is well understood. It's another sad example of the complete lack of progress at most shops with respect to the modern hobby.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[ikan]

update after 50% water change yesterday.
PH 8.4 (has always been at this level)
Ammonia 0.25 (marginal as closer to yellow than lime green)
Nitrite 0
Nitrate between 10 and 20 (tap water is 5)

fishies looking happy.all swimming around the tank individually but not that far from each other.

 

[symon_say]

I know what you say, i just say, you have to do water change on the basis of the biload your fish put in the tank. If fish are small they will put just a little, and you can do water changes less often, but always before it goes over 0.25.

While I agree that this meets the guidelines we usually espouse here in the beginners forum when we discuss fish-in technique Symon, I'm afraid I have to agree with KK on this one. We are trying to fishless cycle with fish that normally should not be introduced to a tank less than 6 months old for maxiumum health prospects, so we want to lower the chemical stress as much as possible. Since the tank is quite small, it's not that much more work to make the water changes more frequent.

This case is also interesting from the standpoint of being yet another of several recent ones where we see not just bad advice from the LFS but advice that is almost textbook opposite of what we would give: The store has implied to the beginner that readings of zero ammonia and nitrite in a newly filled tank are somehow a positive sign, when in fact we all know this is indicative of... Nothing! It simply means no cycling process whatsoever has even started and that the tap water does not contain these substances. The advice that this is somehow good is one of the worst things you could do for learning purposes. Likewise, the shop has not only allowed neons to go out to an immature tank but has even recommended them for cycling, something we don't really like to do to -any- fish, regardless of it's hardiness now that fishless cycling is well understood. It's another sad example of the complete lack of progress at most shops with respect to the modern hobby.

~~waterdrop~~

Agree.

Shops owners now this, they now about fishlees cycle and everything, but they prefer the old fashion way, that way they can sell you more fish, and make more profits, i don't know how are things outside my country in this matters, but i have more than 6 LFS about 20 min or less from home, i visit most of then when i'm around, and i have settle in one of then, cause they keep good eye on their fish, people that works there have fish tanks and love fish, 2 more of then are like this, one is run for the owner and is really nice, but they have just a few fish and the other is the most expensive of all of then, (Discus US$210/pair), the other stores simply don't care about the fish i seen the worst infection in one of then, about 20 of their 30-40 tank were infected with something, and they sell the fish that way.

So my advice to noobs like me, if you have the change visit all your LFS and settle with the one you like the most, ask the people that works there and make friends, that way they can give you a little better advice, and ALWAYS come here before purchasing to do research.

 

[ikan]

brought water sample to lfs and they reckon my ammonia is 0 and not 0.25
nitrite still very much 0 but nitrate is a lot darker than what it was before.

is it possible that my constant water changes and small feeds have cycled the tank without ammonia or nitrite spikes?