Fish Dying Of Ich

[laurieo33]

Hi all,
Well my fish have all got the dreaded ich. I noticed it yesterday afternoon and tried all of the "quick fixes" I could while I'm waiting to get a QT ready. (Garlic, cleaner shrimp, fresh water dip) my Coral Beauty died an hour ago. I already know that my Ocellaris clown and dragon goby have it but are still holding up ok. My jawfish is missing in action, his burrow has been abandoned and I can't find him anywhere. (not on the floor either) This ich just showed up full force and is relentless. I work from home so I am always here and can't resist staring at them a few times during the day and never noticed a spot on them, the Coral Beauty is just bright and colorful and I think I would have noticed even a dot.
I heard that ich starts in the gills so it takes a few days to actually see the "spots".
Anyhow, enough blubbering. I don't have a QT and I obviously should have from the get go but I'm going to try and get one up and going now. My question: Should I remove the inverts and give my fish the proper medicine? Or should I try and fashion a make shift QT by way of stealing live rock and live sand from my tank? I don't think my fish are gonna live long enough for me to find suitable arrangements for them. I do have extra of everything to start a QT tank(excluding the needed mature filter) but I'll chalk that up to me being an idiot. I suppose it does no good sitting in the closet.
My tank: 30 gal (30"L x 12W x 18"H)
Dragon Goby
Ocellaris Clown
Pearly Jawfish
Cleaner shrimp
Choco chip Star
7 Red legged hermits
2 snails
1 small emerald crab

PH: 7.8 (low I know)
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10
18 lbs live rock 30 lbs live sand
Help anyone??

 

[laurieo33]

Guess I should have placed this in emergency. Oh well, I digress, I'll save these fish one way or another.

 

[littleme1969]

Having been through this myself and learnt from my mistakes I know just how you feel
I will say at this point there are no short cuts!!
You must quarantine ASAP.
Fresh water dips are deadly for fish and will have no effect on the ich. I'm shocked that this is still given out as advise
The PH change in the water alone can cause the early death of the fish let alone the stress of being caught netted etc.
Lowering the sg again can be deadly. As you lower the sg the PH will also drop and cause a tank crash which will in turn kill the fish. The only way to use the lower s.g. method is to buffer the tank with an additive of some kind and monitor closely. I tried this and to be honest I found it had little effect. Though others have had some good results with it.
The only way to go is QT and meds. The reef friendly meds also dont work and will often kill off other stuff in the tank.
I found the best way to minimise losses is to remove the fish and treat seperate. You dont have to have a glass tank just a large tub will do . As long as there is swimming room and you can get a heater and powerheads/airstone in there for them they will be OK while you get your hands on a glass tank. Make sure the meds are for Marine fish also.
You can use a little live sand and live rock from your tank to help cycle the tank, but this can not be added back to the tank once the meds are in.
I would also leave the fish after moving for 24 - 48 hrs before you strat using the meds to give the fish time to get their breath and reduce stress etc. Make sure you have lots of water made up for daily water changes for the first week or so to keep the ammonia under control.
The main tank will need to be left empty for 6 - 8 weeks to give the ich time to die off. So in the meantime just let it do its thing. Feed sparingly every few days to feed your inverts and keep the bacteria alive.
You can read my journal in my sig, it has all the details of what I did there.
Fingers crossed for you

 

[shibby]

Fresh water dips are deadly for fish and will have no effect on the ich. I'm shocked that this is still given out as advise

man even i believed this i thought the shock dislodged the parasites grip.

best thing to do is if you have no qt just keep the fish well fed garlics good, i believe it makes the fish more hungry so they build up strength by eating and also keep them stress free.

 

[chrissaysyes]

Agreed. If there is no QT then the best thing you can do is make sure they're eating food regularly and theyre not stressed at all. Unfortunately, in my experience, smaller fish do not usually recover so easily. I have had a clown get over it. Just remember that even if it does clear up, then you should NOT introduce any new fish until the tank has been completely clear of signs of ich for quite some time. You may consider introducing Kick Ich or a UV sterilizer?

 

[laurieo33]

This ich just came from no where and ALL my fish were dead within 2 1/2 days. That last thing I added into my tanks within the last two weeks of this happening was a live rock that had been sitting in the LSF for 6 weeks ( or so he claimed)
I'm super pissed off, cuz my LFS (not a "pet" store, they are dedicated to everything fish) told me to buy a cleaner shrimp (Scarlet Skunk) and that would take care of it, of course I new it wouldn't but I spent the money anyhow further limiting the medication I could add to my main tank. All my fish are dead and I am going to let the tank (with the infestation) sit while I continue to scrub the tank and do my 10% changes. While I'm doing that I have my QT cycling. I have a 10gl tank with 5 lbs of live sand and that is how I plan on doing things from now on. I've learned a very valuable lesson.

 

[littleme1969]

Sorry to hear about your loss. My fish hung on for week,s and I know if I had acted sooner to get them into quarantine and not gone down the reef friendly meds route I would have probably saved most and only lost the odd fish. We all learn from our mistakes . I now quarantine everything and all my rock has come direct from importers that cycle it in fishless tanks for months before it goes to the customer so no risk of passing on most fish diseases.
If I where you id leave your main tank for 2 - 3 months before adding fish as that sounds like one of the nasty strains of ich which is doing the rounds. The longer you leave it the better! It will do just fine with the odd bit off food every few days. Yes you will no doubt have an explosion of both macros and pods as I did, but once the new fish get in they will soon get that under control.

 

[andywg]

Some questionable advice above IMO.

If the fish is in a tank and it has ich, then quarantine is useless now. Consider the entire tank infected. Secondly, marine ich does have a dormant stage (unlike FW ich) so can lay in the substrate for some time before waiting for a host. Taking the fish out and healing it will just cause it to come back to an infeested tank. Leaving a tank devoid of fish for 6-8 weeks is good advice.

As to lowering the Salinity being dangerous with the exception of buffering the water. What do we use as substrate? Crushed coral or aragonite sand. Why? Because it buffers pH and KH. Also, even lower level brackish tanks (with an SG between 1.005 to 1.010) will have a pH in the 8 to 8.4 range.

Best suggestion is to read the article here.

 

[SkiFletch]

Also to clarify in this case, there are two main types of "Ich" in saltwater: Cryptocaryon and Oodinium. Both are parasites, infect fish in similar manners, have similar life cycles, and are cured via similar treatments. The main difference between the two is that Oodinium is usually much more virulent and faster acting than Ich. Subjectively I've seen and read of more success treating Cryptocaryon and very few people having success against Oodinium.

Sorry to hear about your losses, and I too reccomend keeping the main tank free from fish for at least 6 weeks, if it were mine, I'd do 8 weeks.

 

[chrissaysyes]

Dont get too discouraged, I think everyone here has battled it at some point. I know me and Ski have. Another thing you may consider is removing the substrate from your QT. As was stated above, the parasites can lay dormant in the substrate so it's just one more measure to lower the chances. Personally...I battled it for a long time. I would wait it out and just short of the average lifespan, I would add a fish thinking surely it would be clear. Not the case. Just wait it all out. Much better safe than sorry. Also be sure to acclimate your new fish for a long and comfortable time. Drip him, and add him with the lights out. Stress is the biggest factor in all of this. Remember that cryptocaryon lives in the wild as well, so fish have to battle this disease on their own all the time. One of the biggest differences in the two is the amount of stress that is on the fish. That will play the biggest role in their health. I hope you have better success in the future.

Also, dont rely too much on cleaner shrimp to rid the tank of ich. Some fish dont like being cleaned and some shrimp dont like to clean fish. I had one that never cleaned a fish. Im sure a lot of people have. They will eat parasites they find in the tank, but certainly not all of them. They are more so preventative than anything. Like I stated earlier, you may want to consider applying a "reef safe" medication to your tank while you let the parasites die off. I did the last time I had the problem and I havnt seen a return in almost a year.

 

[rednwhite barmy]

ah yes.......my old friend the dreaded ich strikes again! and always causes much debate, ive just had a 80% wipe out coz of this little b*stard and my slow response to the early signs, id go with what littleme had to advise and qt asap but i'm a firm believer in the theory that ich CANNOT be fully wiped out (that should spark a response) what ive done after my loss was after qt for 6weeks i feed reg with garlic based nori & brine also i treat the water with theraP just to get my fish stock as healthy as poss and try to keep them stress free. good luck and dont get to down hearted.

 

[littleme1969]

Some questionable advice above IMO.

If the fish is in a tank and it has ich, then quarantine is useless now. Consider the entire tank infected. Secondly, marine ich does have a dormant stage (unlike FW ich) so can lay in the substrate for some time before waiting for a host. Taking the fish out and healing it will just cause it to come back to an infeested tank. Leaving a tank devoid of fish for 6-8 weeks is good advice.

As to lowering the Salinity being dangerous with the exception of buffering the water. What do we use as substrate? Crushed coral or aragonite sand. Why? Because it buffers pH and KH. Also, even lower level brackish tanks (with an SG between 1.005 to 1.010) will have a pH in the 8 to 8.4 range.

Best suggestion is to read the article here.

I think you should read things properly before you post!
It clearly states that the fish should be removed and the tank left as long as possible to allow time for the ich to die off.
Also Allowing substrate to buffer a tank in this way is not possible. When you drop the sg to kill the ich you drop it quickly over a few days. It takes weeks to allow substrate to buffer a tank by which time your tank has crashed and everything is dead! Lowering the s.g. should only be done by people who really know what they are doing, and not people who are panicking trying to save their fish. I've read much on the sg lowering issue and most will state that the water should be buffered and monitored well otherwise you can cause more problems than you solve.
Most people like myself will be using RO water which has a really low PH and rely on their salt to bring it back up to 8 - 8.4
so its common sense to expect the adding off large amounts of RO water to bring down the sg to also bring down the PH. Its also common knowledge that a low PH in a salt tank will cause a tank crash especially if its done quickly.

 

[andywg]

I think you should read things properly before you post!
It clearly states that the fish should be removed and the tank left as long as possible to allow time for the ich to die off.

Could have fooled me. You stated before:

"You must quarantine ASAP."

That is not what you have posted above. My post was in refernece to your apparent advice that once a fish has ich it should be quarantined immdeiately, which as we are all aware will not work if another fish is in the main tank.

Also Allowing substrate to buffer a tank in this way is not possible. When you drop the sg to kill the ich you drop it quickly over a few days. It takes weeks to allow substrate to buffer a tank by which time your tank has crashed and everything is dead!

Absolute rubbish. If lowering the salinity causes the pH to drop so far, why are brackish tanks with a far lower salinity than full marine happily stable at a pH above 8? The buffer is exactly that, a buffer to maintain equilibrium. As the pH tries to drop (not as a result of less salt but due to other processes such as the gradual acidification of water as part of the nitrogen processing) more of the substrate will dissolve into the water buffering the water back up.

If you don't believe me, look at the book by another member of this forum (Neale Monks) on keeping brackish fish. In it you will notice that once the specific gravity of brackish water is above 1.005 you will see pH and KH levels very similar to marine conditions.

Further, nature abhors an imbalance. On what basis do you assume it will take weeks for substrate to buffer the water? The moment that the water's pH becomes more acidic than the substrate would like the substrate will start to dissolve until the pH returns to a desired level.

Lowering the s.g. should only be done by people who really know what they are doing, and not people who are panicking trying to save their fish. I've read much on the sg lowering issue and most will state that the water should be buffered and monitored well otherwise you can cause more problems than you solve.

And putting some buffering substrate and live rock in a tank and using a pH kit is too much for most mere mortals is it?

Most people like myself will be using RO water which has a really low PH and rely on their salt to bring it back up to 8 - 8.4
so its common sense to expect the adding off large amounts of RO water to bring down the sg to also bring down the PH. Its also common knowledge that a low PH in a salt tank will cause a tank crash especially if its done quickly.

But who said anything about rapidly bringing fown the SG by adding large amounts of RO? Do it over a day or so and the buffering will happily occur. Further, RO water is fairly pure and will quickly drop due to CO2 dissolving into it. The moment you start adding salt it flies back up towards 8 as there is very little buffering in pure water.

Now, at times just using salt to buffer the pH of a brackish tank at a specific gravity of 1.005 will not be enough (though this is by no means always the case), so what do the brackish keepers do to keep the pH and hardness up? Stick some crushed coral or aragonite sand in the tank/filter to keep it up, exactly as I suggested for these tanks. By keeping a tank at around 1.012 the salt alone is likely to buffer the water and the adding of calcaereous media will ensure the pH will not go wandering.

Also, a low pH will only really cause an invert crash. With other variants (such as salts and hardness levels) remaining constant a fish can adapt very quickly to changes in pH (as in a few minutes). This post by Bignose goes into more detail, but the important part to note is that what most people think of as pH shock is really hardness shock.

 

[littleme1969]

I think you should read things properly before you post!
It clearly states that the fish should be removed and the tank left as long as possible to allow time for the ich to die off.

Could have fooled me. You stated before:

"You must quarantine ASAP."

That is not what you have posted above. My post was in refernece to your apparent advice that once a fish has ich it should be quarantined immdeiately, which as we are all aware will not work if another fish is in the main tank.

Also Allowing substrate to buffer a tank in this way is not possible. When you drop the sg to kill the ich you drop it quickly over a few days. It takes weeks to allow substrate to buffer a tank by which time your tank has crashed and everything is dead!

Absolute rubbish. If lowering the salinity causes the pH to drop so far, why are brackish tanks with a far lower salinity than full marine happily stable at a pH above 8? The buffer is exactly that, a buffer to maintain equilibrium. As the pH tries to drop (not as a result of less salt but due to other processes such as the gradual acidification of water as part of the nitrogen processing) more of the substrate will dissolve into the water buffering the water back up.

If you don't believe me, look at the book by another member of this forum (Neale Monks) on keeping brackish fish. In it you will notice that once the specific gravity of brackish water is above 1.005 you will see pH and KH levels very similar to marine conditions.

Further, nature abhors an imbalance. On what basis do you assume it will take weeks for substrate to buffer the water? The moment that the water's pH becomes more acidic than the substrate would like the substrate will start to dissolve until the pH returns to a desired level.

Lowering the s.g. should only be done by people who really know what they are doing, and not people who are panicking trying to save their fish. I've read much on the sg lowering issue and most will state that the water should be buffered and monitored well otherwise you can cause more problems than you solve.

And putting some buffering substrate and live rock in a tank and using a pH kit is too much for most mere mortals is it?

Most people like myself will be using RO water which has a really low PH and rely on their salt to bring it back up to 8 - 8.4
so its common sense to expect the adding off large amounts of RO water to bring down the sg to also bring down the PH. Its also common knowledge that a low PH in a salt tank will cause a tank crash especially if its done quickly.

But who said anything about rapidly bringing fown the SG by adding large amounts of RO? Do it over a day or so and the buffering will happily occur. Further, RO water is fairly pure and will quickly drop due to CO2 dissolving into it. The moment you start adding salt it flies back up towards 8 as there is very little buffering in pure water.

Now, at times just using salt to buffer the pH of a brackish tank at a specific gravity of 1.005 will not be enough (though this is by no means always the case), so what do the brackish keepers do to keep the pH and hardness up? Stick some crushed coral or aragonite sand in the tank/filter to keep it up, exactly as I suggested for these tanks. By keeping a tank at around 1.012 the salt alone is likely to buffer the water and the adding of calcaereous media will ensure the pH will not go wandering.

Also, a low pH will only really cause an invert crash. With other variants (such as salts and hardness levels) remaining constant a fish can adapt very quickly to changes in pH (as in a few minutes). This post by Bignose goes into more detail, but the important part to note is that what most people think of as pH shock is really hardness shock.

You have your opinion and I have mine. Differance is I am actually stating something which I have tried myself and not just read in books. I have 100lbs of cruished coral substrate, specially design for buffering, in my tank and it did nothing to buffer the PH what so ever. Maybe if left a week or two it would eventually bring in back up. PLease go and try it for your self!! Bring down the s.g. in your tank to 0009 and see what happens!! and watch as your system crashes ,then you can comment.
Brackish tanks are set up with that s.g. to start with so there is no sudden drop for anything to deal with. Its the dropping and diluting that causes the problems not the s.g. level itself.
As for the quarantine issue.. it states to quarantine the fish.. MEANING ALL THE FISH!! or maybe thats just too far of a stretch for your "black and white" mentallity

Encouraging people to mess with things they dont understand on here is trully Cr*p advise also which is what you have done above. I generally comment on things I have done first hand myself and would never knowingly give bad advise to anyone and find your comments quite insultive and rude

*I rest my case and will comment no futher*

 

[andywg]

You have your opinion and I have mine. Differance is I am actually stating something which I have tried myself and not just read in books.

How stupid of me to rely on the experience of experts rather than the experience of you. You yourself claimed this is a really hard thing to do, any possibility that you messed it up? I will be far happier quoting from people such as Scott Michael, Bob Fenner and Neale Monks than blindly copying you, however, different people have different opinions. I was putting the experiences of far greater fish keepers than I out here so that people have more than one opinion. Also, if hyposalinity is really so hard, why is it so commonly suggested and often successful?

I have 100lbs of cruished coral substrate, specially design for buffering, in my tank and it did nothing to buffer the PH what so ever. Maybe if left a week or two it would eventually bring in back up.

And here we come to the issue. You have tried it once and for whatever reason you failed. As a result you cannot believe the advice that is given by many an expert on how to keep tanks because it didn't work for you.

How strange that such a small amount can buffer a brackish tank up within hours (look through the FW posts, there are more than one or two posts about people putting a small amount of crushed coral into the filter and watching the pH and KH go shooting up)

PLease go and try it for your self!! Bring down the s.g. in your tank to 0009 and see what happens!! and watch as your system crashes ,then you can comment.

Assuming you mean 1.009 I don't think I will. My systems have inverts in them and as they are osmoconformists they would not fare all that well. I would happily put my fish in a treatment tank and lower the SG to 1.012 to 1.014 where the crypt will stop being able to survive.

Brackish tanks are set up with that s.g. to start with so there is no sudden drop for anything to deal with. Its the dropping and diluting that causes the problems not the s.g. level itself.

If x amount of water with y amount of salt has z pH then it won't matter whether you are diluting stronger SW to it or bringing up from a lower salinity. I am afraid I fail to understand your logic for the above statement.

As for the quarantine issue.. it states to quarantine the fish.. MEANING ALL THE FISH!! or maybe thats just too far of a stretch for your "black and white" mentallity

Or maybe your lack of putting a very important part of your advice (such as "all the fish" rather than just quarantine the fish) leaves your statement extremely vague and ambiguous? Even in your second post after I pointed out that an infected fish means an infected tank you still did not put all the fish should be removed.

Encouraging people to mess with things they dont understand on here is trully Cr*p advise also which is what you have done above.

And providing a link to the reefkeeping issues which deal specifically with how to combat marine ich so that they can better understand all the options open to them is a bad thing because? I stated what I believed is the best based on my experiences of treating marine ich. Oh, that's right! I have faced it and treated it successfully, and guess how I did it!

Maybe you are right. Maybe I should never give people the opportunity to read and learn about different successful ways of keeping fish, but rather demand they all copy how I do it because I am right because I have done something once.

Nah, sorry. As long as I post here I shall post both my own experiences and that which I have learnt from others. Maybe you could demand Ski stops posting links to Randy Farley-Holmses's 2 part additive because someone must have crashed their tank dosing with that and Ski hasn't himself done all the research on how much is needed.

I generally comment on things I have done first hand myself and would never knowingly give bad advise to anyone and find your comments quite insultive and rude

I too have never knowingly given bad advice. I merely stated that the advice as it stood was bad as it appeared you had only advocated quarantining the sick fish. Did you not think that maybe I am discussing from first hand as well? Maybe my comments are rude and insulting, or maybe it is just a strong rebuttal of someone who is stating a tried and tested method is not good because they had problems with it.

*I rest my case and will comment no futher*

Fair enough, then it shall rest as it is above. People can either choose to treat based on your successful (and unsuccessful) attempts at treating marine ich, or they can choose to read the link I posted, maybe head to Wet Web Media or check out the reef fishes series of books and try other options that are out there.

I am certainly happy that this thread gives people the chances to read the pros and cons and make their mind up, rather than just shouting down a method because I got something wrong.