First Tank - Ideas On Size For The Location

[Miles_hot]

I am sorting out a tank for my wife's birthday (and the children are very excited too!) and I was thinking that I would have quite a lot of time to mull over fish types etc whilst idly sketching out the tank and surrounding storage ideas.

Now that I have read up on the cycling aspects I now understand that given my wife's birthday is in april I have very, very little time to design the tank and the make the surrounding storage and support furniture so I thought I would ask you all for some advice so forgive the sudden rash of questions and the unseemly speed some of this stuff will be decided on....

Tank size
1. The tank will be sitting into a recess in the hall between the kitchen and the rest of the house which currently has a full height window (it was originally designed as a door way before plans changed). It would appear that this might not be an idea place for the tank so I will be mitigating the window location by putting a board across the window behind the tank and possibly having a tank with a black back etc. Is there anything else that I can be doing to maximise the chances of success with the tank?

2. The location gives some size constraints: length of 35", a preferable max width of 18-19" and a max height off the floor of 135cm . The key question is how deep should I go? With a 24" tank such as is available in a kit from World of Water or the like I get around 50 gallons however I can go a bit deeper, say 30" or 36" - will this give me any advantages and if so what would be a good depth?

3. If I end up with a deeper than 2' tank do I have an opportunity to play with different fish at the bottom, middle and top of the tank or do you have to be at serious sizes before this becomes a consideration?

4. Am I right in thinking that a 50 gallon (UK) tank will weight around 225 KG, i.e. around 0.25 ton? Do you have to go to metal supports at this sort of level or does wood still do the job? I am assuming that I will be able to use wood not least as the shop displays were on supplied wood cabinets however I thought I'd check just in case there were some hidden metal elements I missed!

tank kit vs mix and match
5. In world of water there were some complete kits' tank, heater, filter etc being sold together however I am naturally slightly distrustful of such things as the system is only as good as the weakest link and there's always the fear that something is scrimped to bring the system price down to a level. Balanced against this is a total ignorance of good brands etc (see next question). Is it best to buy kits when you are starting out or is it better to buy once, buy separate? I am aiming for a communal tank with some plants in (but not the sort of 95% cover planted tanks!) but low maintenance (i.e. no C)2 pump etc)

6. What are good brands if I go separate? I assume that it is rare for one company to be brilliant in more than one thing so maybe you can suggest some good brands (and maybe if you're feeling generous model ranges) for the following:
a) Tank (and hoods)
b) External Filter
c) External heater (I assume that it is nicest to have this out of the tank, I also assume that it presents the least risk when doing water changes etc)
d) Lights - assuming these can be upgraded or need to be upgraded
e) Anything else I need to think about?

I haven't bothered to ask about fish as we have a lot more looking around to do on that one and I'm not sure I could make sense of the replies however if it helps we will be looking for some small shoaling types with around 4 bigger fish (one for each member of the family to "own") but apart from that we've not really done much thinking (as I said at the top of this essay I thought we had ages yet!).

Many thanks in advance - I will answer any questions you have as soon as I can.

Miles

 

[waterdrop]

OK you're going to need a lot of help so I'm afraid I'll have to start small and throw in a few things at a time.

About your alcove location: An important thing to think about is access to all the sides of the aquarium. You don't want to cram it in to a space such that you can't fit your arms for cleaning the exterior glass (say on the sides) and especially there are many things that need to be done at the back of the tank (even if you don't have a filter back there) such as things to do with backgrounds, electrical wires, filter intakes/outputs, external heaters and of course exterior glass cleaning again. These things can get very, very difficult if you don't leave yourself some room and a way to get light back there too.

Another early on consideration is the height of the tank, from the substrate up to the water surface. People often don't stop and consider how long their forearm is. You have to work a lot at the substrate surface in a tank and all the way down in the substrate planting plants and doing other tasks. A tank beyond about 17 inches or 18 inches or so can start to get hard and if you get much deeper you will be doing everything indirectly with instruments which will be quite frustrating and consume major amounts of time (not good with the amount of regular mainenance a good tank needs.)

Combine this with the fact that height (greater water depth) does not add surface area and so does not help with the gas exchange that is favorable to the fish and bacteria. Thus, the height actually does not add to the number of fish you can support in a healthy manner and height is also more difficult for natural tank decorations like live plants and backgrounds.

On a different topic, I applaud your awareness of the tradeoffs between kits and buying equipment individually. Since this is quite a serious hobbyist site, most of us tend to like the idea of buying equipment individually. This is partly because we've gotten in to the details of the equipment and have found what you said to be true - each type of equipment has its best manufacturers and they are not all necessarily the same. Also, perhaps surprisingly, perhaps not, the equipment is often an additional fun part of the hobby. In fact, unfortunately for your timetable, one of the great things about the hobby is that its all about slowing down and enjoying things, in contrast to much of our world these days. Getting some recommendations and choosing individual equipment would be at least as good as kit buying I think and likely to be a lot better, -even- if you are rushed.

If you want a jumpstarter that's just an opinion, I suspect if you can afford it that your work would likely end you up with what's called an external cannister filter from one of the major top brands: Eheim, Rena(if in USA) or Tetratec(if in UK) and its a slam dunk that a Hydor external heater would be the way to go on heating, splicing it into the output hose of the external cannister filter. Once you figure out the water volume of your tank you'll need to start calculating the "turnover" rate: Many of us start with 5x turnover in mind but it can range from 4x to 10x or even more. The flow rate of the filter is a different and harder to find number sometimes than the advertised "size of tank" they give you.

Finally, let me make a suggestion to start thinking about. Its unlikely that you can size out a tank, build the support and cabinet, learn the stuff you need to learn and then Fishless Cycle the tank in time to get fish for an April birthday. We very commonly see fishless cycles that take 60 to 80 days to complete. BUT, you also don't want the new pets that are the birthday gift to die on you, right? So the solution lies in engaging the children and having a "project" that is so interesting and engaging that your wife will feel drawn in to a wonderful family thing that may involve plants and tank decorations and all sorts of scientific bacteria considerations and such and hopefully it will just not seem a bad thing that its "not quite time for fish yet!"

You have a tremendous opportunity to do it right and fishless cycle and to learn from a bunch of wonderful members who are a lot of fun (you've stumbled on the right place!) By the way, keep up the reading.. both the Beginners Resource Center and searches of TFF and the reading of other beginners threads.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[NinjaSmurf]

Well, I agree with waterdrop, but I also understand about wanting to have it setup in time for the birthday. One thing I can think of is finding someone that could give you mature filter media so you can at least add some fish after you set the tank up.

Mind you, this is going to be something you will have some time to think about, because long before you get to this point you will need everything set up and have a stocking list already picked out...

 

[Miles_hot]

WD - thanks for the reply - more than happy for you to break things into chunks to avoid war and peace!

Tank location: I am very constrained on the location so will have to come up with some way of minimising the impact of the exterior glass which is up against the wall - I have seen that some tanks have black masking on the back, I assume this is something that can be added to any tank or is it a property of the actual glass?

Tank Size: I will stick to the 24" as a max depth. Just measured my wife's arms (she seemed to think this is an odd thing to do, but hey she married me! ) and she'll be able to just reach if she gets on a stool so no worries there. Anything more I can help with. I had wondered if the depth thing would be any use and your reply convinces me. Thanks

Thanks for the tips on the filters etc - I am in the UK. When you talk of splicing the Hydor heater into the flow I assume that there are good connectors etc for this and it is not a case of cutting and welding stuff into place? Do I take it that a tanks a tank pretty much as this place makes some play about the glass quality etc so I wondered if all is as it appears on all tanks etc Also the idea of a 3 year warrantee seems horribly short! I am assuming that DIY is something that I have neither time nor skill for at this time?

On the timing side of things I know that I will not have this thing stocked for the birthday and Caroline is in on the whole thing (with me doing the donkey work and just managing her expectations etc) so we're not going to rush into it however this is balanced off against the demands of out lives - slowing down is not something that is very easy to do at the moment - so I have to fit the build activity in as soon as I can and then the cycling and choosing of fish can take a little longer etc.

I didn't stumble upon this place - I spend some time on an excellent corner of the internet - UK workshop and one of the members recommended you all so I have high expectations which are well on the way to being fulfilled

NinjaSmurf
I have attempted to get in touch with a couple of people listed at the top of this section on the MM donors list, hopefully one of them will take pity on me

Thanks to you both.

Miles

 

[waterdrop]

Well yes, the amazing power of the modern clear silicone glues that hold glass to glass have in many ways "equalized" a tank market (talking pure tanks here, the glass and edges) into a situation where people do pretty well with most things out there. This doesn't mean there aren't quality differences though and as you can imagine, a serious hobbyist site like this has its share of hardware geeks. If you have access to places like the one you linked I'd go for it if it seems higher quality. I always like to recommend straightforward rectangular shapes too, as I've found the bowfronts seem to disappoint sometimes in the way they make things seem shallow front to back. No you definately don't want to be doing DIY this time around and there's little need to. The need for hood and light though should be thought about in terms of probably making you want a standard length that will match one of those.

The spicing I was referring to means simply taking a sharp knife to the plastic return hose (after some good thinking about overall lengths and where you want the heater to hang (I hang mine with a nylon cord from the mid-tank support in the back. The background hides all this.) Each end of the cut hose then pushes over the nipple on each end of the Hydor and there is a screw down hoselock that provides further insurance. The Hydor is directional and has a big arrow indicating water flow.

All the major filter products have trade-offs. If your tank is going to be in a hall then one plus of that (as opposed to a child's bedroom for instance) is that the final degree of quiet is not as much a consideration (Eheim's are good at that final degree of quiet but you pay for it!) The Tetratecs have really become extremely popular ECs with the UK members as the price is really quite low and the reports are nearly all good. There was a short run of reports of plastic breaking but I think that was handled and is over with. Its good to learn about the basic functions that filters are supposed to carry out and you may be able to do searches (you can use my id to search, I've done plenty of cannister filter explanations over time.) Most of us plan out and often customize our media choices within the filter.

Here are heater numbers in the larger range where I think you are?
150 wt : 100 ltrs (26 gal)
200 wt : 125 ltrs (33 gal)
250 wt : 150 ltrs (40 gal)
300 wt : 200 ltrs (53 gal)
Hydor make 200w and 300w and probably the 300 only comes in the larger hose diameter so that may need to be checked out against your filter choice.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Miles_hot]

When you talked about the tank aspects you seems to be quite specific in your comment around the glass etc:

[font="arial][size="2"](talking pure tanks here, the glass and edges)

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[font="arial][size="3"]Does that mean that the hoods etc are another area all together and if so what do I need to look for / are there good brands again or is it best to buy from the same manufacturer as made the tank so that there is a certainty around the fit?[/size][/font]
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[font="arial][size="3"]Miles[/size][/font]

 

[Always Learning]

If you were looking for an 'off the peg' tank, then the Juwel Rio 125 fits the size that you're looking for, though from the sounds of things, you'd like a bigger one.

The max measurements including the unit supplied are 32" width, 14" depth and 48.5" high (Tank only - 32", 14", 19.5"). This would also allow you a little space for access. Build quality is fantastic and they're supplied with a filter, heater and light unit all in. Ok, these aren't the best, but they do the job and the T5 light units are now decent. I'm not sure on the measurements of the next tank up, the Rio 180, but it might be worth finding out and seeing if you could shoehorn one in.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes Miles, your intuition is right, you are correct in detecting a sigh from me as to me it feels just far to much information to try to impart in a short period of time. The hobby is filled with layers and layers of detail so its pretty hard to avoid going through phases. One of the basic problems is that the prime consideration for lighted hoods (or lights and lids, depending on how you look at it) is the cultivation and growth of plants and plants are really in many ways a bit harder hobby than fish, so the number of parameters go up.

A good way to not get bogged down in this is to decide, "ok, I'm only going to focus now on becoming a fishkeeper" or "I'm going to focus on learning to do a beginner community tank with an "easy" plant approach" and not get too caught up in the more advanced aspects of lighting for "planted" (the word "planted" is the loaded one that serves as a tip-off usually that the more advance hobby is being talked about, as opposed to normal tanks.)

OK, so Always_Learning up there makes a really good point that in the UK you have some really, really nice lines of products (looking from where I sit in the US) that include tanks and lighted hoods (and to my mind the more normal size might save you from the too-tall thing I still sense you getting in to, hehe) but of course you'd have to look at them. A lot of them are sold with cabinets and filters and other extras you don't want (you've already indicated you want to make your own stand and I'd not recommend getting filters or heaters as part of a kit.)

Ah heck, what can I say about hoods? I'll probably get myself in trouble. First of all you want to make sure your light is appropriate for freshwater. A fair number of beginners accidentally end up with marine(salt water) lighting, which is different as it serves a different set of functions. I prefer plain old T8 or T12 flourescents but T5 can be ok and may even be better if you know what you're doing and its what you're going after. The "reflector" is important. Metal ones will focus and reflect more light down on the plants and not let as much light be wasted out past the glass as it heads towards the substrate.

To shop for the right amount of light its best to already understand the beginnings of the "planted" lighting skill set. A good simplification is that there are two "approaches" to typical hobbyist plant growing: "low-light" and "high-tech" and unless you really want to get in to the planted hobby you probably best start in the world of "low-light".. which means less than 2 watts (T8 or T12) per US gallon.. in fact 1 watt to 1.5 watts is about right. Light is the driving force for the whole plant thing and its important to stay within the correct speed limit for the road you are on. The wattage guidelines also sometimes need modification as you move off to smaller or larger tanks or tall tanks, so that can take some extra reading.

Heck, , I was just thinking.. all of this is academic! We're talking goldfish tank here, right? Plants are food! They'll just pull up and munch anything that goes in there, lol. You've just been set free, just get a hood and light that fit and be done with it!

~~waterdrop~~
Edit: No, WAIT, wrong again.. I was thinking of "greengoddess" I think (you can read his thread too, lol) who is doing goldfish.. Sorry! Oh well, it was getting too long anyway, right?

 

[Miles_hot]

If you were looking for an 'off the peg' tank, then the Juwel Rio 125 fits the size that you're looking for, though from the sounds of things, you'd like a bigger one.

The max measurements including the unit supplied are 32" width, 14" depth and 48.5" high (Tank only - 32", 14", 19.5"). This would also allow you a little space for access. Build quality is fantastic and they're supplied with a filter, heater and light unit all in. Ok, these aren't the best, but they do the job and the T5 light units are now decent. I'm not sure on the measurements of the next tank up, the Rio 180, but it might be worth finding out and seeing if you could shoehorn one in.

Thanks for the lead - I will have a look around.

Miles

 

[Miles_hot]

WD

Coming from being a beginner in the wonderful world of wood working and turning I fully appreciate that some of the joy of the hobby must be kit chat, purchase and upgrade however I have also learnt to attempt to buy good and buy once learning from other peoples' experience

I am (currently) not interested in a fully planted tank however I do want to keep some plants. I am also very disinterested in a highly advanced high tech full planted tank with CO2 pumps etc.

Thanks for the tip off on the marine vs freshwater lighting and the guide line on numbers. What I am less clear on is if Hoods are a separate category of "kit" or if they tend to come with the tank. In either case is it just a case of looking at the build quality and checking that flaps etc seem strong enough or are there other things to worry about?

Looking at the tank builder site I found there all sorts of other kit that they sell making me wonder if the filter/heater/tank/lights which I have "chosen" is all I have to worry about, other items sold include:
Air pumps
Protien skimmers
Reactors (Goodness knows what those are)

Also one place (who coincidently sells filters) suggests that rather than one big filter 2 are better as this gives contingency in case of one failing - whilst an interesting point does this ring true with you and should I therefore double up on heaters etc etc ?

Your helps as always very much appreciated!

Miles

 

[toshapetriji]

I can let you have a little mature media to give you a start.

 

[Miles_hot]

I can let you have a little mature media to give you a start.

Fantastic - yes please I guess it will be a few weeks before I will be in a position to use it but it will be very gratefully received. Is there any value is getting a pump to you etc or is the best way just to wait a little and do a media swap when I actually have a tank in position and full of water etc?

Miles

 

[toshapetriji]

Just go for a media swap when you have the tank set up and ready to go. PM me when that function starts for you, around 20 posts I think.

 

[waterdrop]

MM (mature media) is about the best jumstart you could hope to get in this hobby so you are quite lucky in that exchange!

Skimmers are for the marine world, so too reactors unless you needed a CO2 reactor to break your CO2 bubbles into even smaller bubbles for a high-tech planted tank, which you don't. Even an air pump is not needed by a freshwater beginner as long as the surface water is moved in some other way, usually by the filter output stream(s).

Tank hoods/tops fall into one of those catagories that straddles the "who cares" and the "let's fret over the details" areas. Most people can simply get a top and goes with a tank and be fine. There are, however, some irritations that happen. Most of us like tops that drop back down a little inside the rim to give a greater guarantee that our condensation water will drip back into the tank and not down the outsides. Most light hoods and tank rims are designed so that won't happen but not all. Its also nice if the light and its fixture are not directly over water but instead have a lid between. In my case I have a simple glass lid (two pieces of glass that rest on a narrow lip that is part of the tank rim all the way around) that articulates via a simple plastic(silicone?) hinge strip that the glass pushes in to and this is completely separate from two simple flourescent light stips that also simply sit on the tank rim sides. All three pieces, the two light strips and the glass lid are easily moveable and separately removable and separately cleanable, all features that I find useful.

Redundancy in filters and even in heaters is of course part of the ideal world but you're really probably in more company as a beginner if you don't have such redundancy. Its more commonly done as tanks get pretty big, eg. on out at 60 US gallons and larger and even then of course not all the time. Of course the hobbyists who get more and more "into it" have the advantage of lots of pieces of extra kit lying around and that can save fish in emergencies but there are priciples, such as not overstocking, not buying extremely expensive fish and being prepared and this and that that can make this kind of extreme extra expense not necessary when beginning.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Miles_hot]

WD

IN another post you mentioned avoiding Eheim Thermo filters - I just wondered why when they seem to reduce the kit count a little?
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[font="Arial][size="3"]Miles[/size][/font]