Europe

[fluttermoth]

But my Dad made me stop and think on Friday ... he said "it's the Poles I feel for. I know there are too many here but at the end of the day they fought with us in the war and for that we own them some respect"
 
I didn't know that. Perhaps next time you hear someone on social media bashing the Polish perhaps you should pass on my Dad's message. It might shut a few people up

My father was a military historian, making a special study of the RAF, so I was luckily well aware (and have been mentioning it on Twitter and a few other places

). There were many Polish pilots that fought in the Battle of Britain, and fought very bravely. I think that what people are forgetting is, there's a big difference between governments allowing unrealistic levels of immigration and making the laws that allow it, and the people who are just trying to do their own thing and have done so perfectly legally. You can easily hate immigration without hating the immigrants themselves. None of this mess is their fault, and it's shame that some people can't keep their common, human decency, even if we are in difficult times.

 

[Byron]

The issue of immigration and refugees is of course a major issue in the US now, with comments from the Republican candidate Donald Trump that he will build a wall between Mexico and the US, and further prohibit all Muslims from entering the US.  Only this week he has had to back-track a bit on the latter, but this stirs people up nonetheless.
 
Immigration and refugees came up in Canada during the last federal election (October 2015) campaign.  Then-Prime Minister Harper tried to make issues over terrorism, national dress of other cultures, and such, but with 70% of the electorate determined to get rid of him before the election was even called there was little substance.  After the photo of the poor little dead Syrian boy on the beach went viral, current PM Justin Trudeau (who defeated him soundly) challenged Harper on the Syrian refugees, and promised 20,000 (compared to Harper's 2,000) by year's end,   The first plane of refugees arrived in Toronto just before the end of 2015, and these homeless people carrying everything they owned in bags and boxes were greeted warmly and like royalty when they entered the airport by the PM, the Minister of Immigration, the Minister of Defence, the Premier of Ontario, and the Mayor of Toronto.  To see these statesman hugging the people and carrying their bags brought tears to the eyes.  I have never been more proud of Canada.
 
Byron.

 

[fluttermoth]

The issue of immigration and refugees is of course a major issue in the US now, with comments from the Republican candidate Donald Trump that he will build a wall between Mexico and the US, and further prohibit all Muslims from entering the US.  Only this week he has had to back-track a bit on the latter, but this stirs people up nonetheless.
 
Immigration and refugees came up in Canada during the last federal election (October 2015) campaign.  Then-Prime Minister Harper tried to make issues over terrorism, national dress of other cultures, and such, but with 70% of the electorate determined to get rid of him before the election was even called there was little substance.  After the photo of the poor little dead Syrian boy on the beach went viral, current PM Justin Trudeau (who defeated him soundly) challenged Harper on the Syrian refugees, and promised 20,000 (compared to Harper's 2,000) by year's end,   The first plane of refugees arrived in Toronto just before the end of 2015, and these homeless people were greeted warmly and like royalty when they entered the airport by the PM, the Minister of Immigration, the Minister of Defence, the Premier of Ontario, and the Mayor of Toronto.  To see these statesman hugging the people and carrying luggage brought tears to the eyes.  I have never been more proud of Canada.
 
Byron.

I have a lot of time for Trudeau; whether you agree with his policies or not, I think we could all agree that's he's a man of very high principles, and I wish we had more like him, both in the world and in the UK right now. On a personal note, it's especially heartening for me to see, when so many other countries, especially in europe it seems, are becoming more and more right wing and intolerant.

 

[ShinySideUp]

The issue of immigration and refugees is of course a major issue in the US now, with comments from the Republican candidate Donald Trump that he will build a wall between Mexico and the US, and further prohibit all Muslims from entering the US.  Only this week he has had to back-track a bit on the latter, but this stirs people up nonetheless.
 
Immigration and refugees came up in Canada during the last federal election (October 2015) campaign.  Then-Prime Minister Harper tried to make issues over terrorism, national dress of other cultures, and such, but with 70% of the electorate determined to get rid of him before the election was even called there was little substance.  After the photo of the poor little dead Syrian boy on the beach went viral, current PM Justin Trudeau (who defeated him soundly) challenged Harper on the Syrian refugees, and promised 20,000 (compared to Harper's 2,000) by year's end,   The first plane of refugees arrived in Toronto just before the end of 2015, and these homeless people carrying everything they owned in bags and boxes were greeted warmly and like royalty when they entered the airport by the PM, the Minister of Immigration, the Minister of Defence, the Premier of Ontario, and the Mayor of Toronto.  To see these statesman hugging the people and carrying their bags brought tears to the eyes.  I have never been more proud of Canada.
 
Byron.

 
And here I have to become a little contentious. It is all very well for Canada to assauge it's international guilt by taking in 20,000 refugees but Canada does not have to contend with hundreds of thousands of migrants trying to get into the country, many of them economic migrants rather than refugees, and some bent of causing terror in their countries of adoption. There are not thousands waiting at the Canadian border, attacking truck drivers, riding on tunnel trains and doing everything they can to get through border controls by whatever means -- subterfuge or violence.
 
If the UK was 5000 miles away across a rough ocean I don't suppose we would mind if 20,000 migrants were given homes, especially if our country was one of the largest in the world and we could lose the population of India without much trouble but you have to understand that the UK (and Ireland) would fit into Alberta and whereas the whole of Canada has about 36 million people, the UK has 65 million of which 9 million live in London alone. Surely you can understand why we want to stop immigration from the EU and why many people voted for Brexit in the hope that someone would be able to keep these people out.
 
The cause of all this migration is the fact that the EU has allowed free movement throughout the community but has consistently failed to bring all countries up the the same standard of living therefore causing a migration from poorer to richer countries who do not have the space to house them nor the resources to keep them safe. The EU budget would have been better spent bringing Eastern Europe up to speed rather then spend it's billions on propping up a dreadful Common Agricultural Policy (to the great benefit of the French) and making British fishermen throw perfectly good [dead] fish over the side to avoid breaking a European fish quota [badly] designed to prevent over-fishing.
 
Even as I write this I find myself more and more convinced that the UK has done the right thing in leaving the EU and more and more satisfied that I made the right decision to vote Leave.
 
I would envy Canada but in the winter it is so bloody cold there!

 

[Byron]

I would envy Canada but in the winter it is so bloody cold there!
 

 
Ah, that depends where you are in Canada.  Here in SW BC around Vancouver we have quite a mild climate.  Last winter, which was not an exception, saw no snow, and only once for a few days, a week at most, did the day temperature go below freezing and that only by a couple of degrees.
 
I won't pick at most of what you say, except to point out that no Western country is safe from terrorism any longer.  We in Canada have not had the terrible mass slaughters seen in some European countries and the USA, but we are not totally devoid of terrorism.  A soldier simply standing ceremonial guard at the War Memorial in Ottawa was murdered by a terrorist a couple years back, and the terrorist then ran into Parliament and were it not for the quick thinking of one of the House of Common guards, there could have been an even worse massacre.  And we have been threatened though so far the Canadian and US governments seem to have learned of and thwarted most intended attempts.
 
And we do have immigration issues, if not on such a large scale.  English used to be the predominant language one heard on the streets, especially outside of Quebec, but no more.  I can walk around Vancouver these days and rarely hear English being spoken from others on the sidewalks.  Just this week Canada announced it will make Mexican travel easier, no longer requiring a Visa, and the Ministry of Immigration has expressed serious concerns over possible security risks in doing so.  No country can afford to "go it alone" in this global world, and that is a very real risk for the UK becoming more isolationist.
 
One CBC news commentator analysed the result as a sign the UK is "longing for a time and place that never was."
 
Byron.

 

[ShinySideUp]

 

I would envy Canada but in the winter it is so bloody cold there!
 

 
Ah, that depends where you are in Canada.  Here in SW BC around Vancouver we have quite a mild climate.  Last winter, which was not an exception, saw no snow, and only once for a few days, a week at most, did the day temperature go below freezing and that only by a couple of degrees.
 
I had heard that, I suppose the Pacific keeps it warm.
 
I won't pick at most of what you say, except to point out that no Western country is safe from terrorism any longer.  We in Canada have not had the terrible mass slaughters seen in some European countries and the USA, but we are not totally devoid of terrorism.  A soldier simply standing ceremonial guard at the War Memorial in Ottawa was murdered by a terrorist a couple years back, and the terrorist then ran into Parliament and were it not for the quick thinking of one of the House of Common guards, there could have been an even worse massacre. I did not know that  And we have been threatened though so far the Canadian and US governments seem to have learned of and thwarted most intended attempts.
 
 
 
And we do have immigration issues, if not on such a large scale.  English used to be the predominant language one heard on the streets, especially outside of Quebec, but no more.  I can walk around Vancouver these days and rarely hear English being spoken from others on the sidewalks. That does surprise me, I always assumed Canada to be almost 'pure' (nothing contentious intended)  Just this week Canada announced it will make Mexican travel easier (perhaps they want to send Trump a message), no longer requiring a Visa, and the Ministry of Immigration has expressed serious concerns over possible security risks in doing so.  No country can afford to "go it alone" in this global world, and that is a very real risk for the UK becoming more isolationist. I'm not sure about 'isolationist', just not in the EU. Let's face it, there are more countries NOT in the EU than are; it's not as if we are becoming a western North Korea.
 
One CBC news commentator analysed the result as a sign the UK is "longing for a time and place that never was."  He could be right but there's no harm in dreaming.
 
Byron.
 

 
On the bright side, our currency has picked back up and the FTSE is now higher than before the referendum result. The hysteria is calming down pretty quickly.

 

[fluttermoth]

ShinySideUp; I respect your opinions, and I totally understand why you feel the way you do, but I feel differently about almost everything you have to say, I'm sorry!

I wasn't really going to post in this thread anymore, but I have insomnia, so here I am, with my personal thoughts and feelings on the subject.

I think that, maybe, the difference between Canada's experience of immigration and the UKs might be one of attitude. Canada welcomes refugees and immigrants and makes them feel at home. This fosters good feeling, trust and builds strong communities.

However, in the UK, immigrants are told they can come here, come here perfectly legally and, in general, they're not welcomed. I know openly racist attitudes are uncommon, but none of us can deny they are out there, and immigrants in the UK see this stuff, just like the rest of us. They see they headlines in the Daily Mail, the Britain First posts on Facebook and, instead of feeling welcomed and at home, they feel unwanted and alienated which, in turn leads, not to strong communities, but fractured communities that are divided and characterised by hate and mistrust which, also in its turn, leads to separatism and potential radicalisation. Leaving the EU will not solve this.

Moreover, I don't think it's numbers of immigrants or refugees that are causing problems with housing, health care and the like. I personally feel it's due to years and years of chronic underfunding, by successive Tory governments that think you can run a country like a business, for profit, while I not only think you probably can't, I think you most definitely shouldn't, run schools and hospitals like that. At the same time as cutting funding to schools, hospitals, the welfare budget and inflicting an unnecessary period of austerity on the populace, the Conservatives have allowed an obscene amount of tax evasion, fraud and unfair and undeserved bonus/salary awards and turned a blind eye while their friends running the press ("When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice" - Rupert Murdoch) peddle disinformation, mistruths and outright lies to demonise, victimise and make scapegoats of the most vulnerable and least able to fight back; the unemployed, the disabled, the immigrants. Leaving the EU is not going to help with this either.

I understand that people want change; I want change too, but I think the change we need to is change who, how and why we vote for the people we do, and whose best interests they're actually serving. I don't think leaving the EU is the way to get the change we need; Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Nigel Farage; they're not change, they're more of the same; rich, privileged, white, public schoolboys who've mostly never done a proper day's work in their lives (thanks for the inspiration there, Mr Farage. What was it you used to do again? Oh, banker yes, that is a proper job, isn't it? Not like, say, a surgeon, or a teacher, or an army officer like those people in the EP you were insulting yesterday then... Oh, btw; thanks for insulting the very people this country has to now try and negotiate a good leaving deal with, very helpful...)

I do agree there are some huge issues involving both the EU and it's bureaucracy and with immigration, both legal and illegal, but I don't think leaving the EU really helps; for a start, we will almost certainly have to accept free movement of people if we want to stay in the free trade agreement, and the bulk of the refugee crisis is a UN issue, not an EU one. I don't think we can make a better, brighter future by shutting ourselves off saying "this is my bit and that's your bit". If you don't like the way things are run, you don't leave; that's just defeatist; you stay and you 'fight' (only in a metaphorical sense!) to make things better. We build a better future by coming together, working together, making all of ourselves better and stronger.

Don't get me wrong; I'm a proud Cornishwoman, and I'm proud of being both English and British. I love that we have Cornish Pasties and Melton Mowbray pork pies, and Stilton cheese; but I also love chicken tikka marsala, and pizza, and chow mein, and you can have all those things whilst still remembering that, as well as being Cornish, or Scottish, or British, or Pakistani, we're not only Europeans, we're most importantly human beings, global citizens. We are all brothers and sisters under the skin.

I can honestly think of no advantages we can gain from leaving the EU. I believe that we will only make things worse; become more separatist, more cut off, more disliked by our closest neighbours, and more irrelevant on the international and global stage.

I've heard a lot about 'taking back control' during this referendum debacle. Yes, 'take back control' but don't at the same time forget to ask, "what, exactly, are we taking control of, and who are we now giving the control to?"

 

[Akasha72]

the take back control thing .... for me that was about Our country being 'controlled' by a government We Chose .... not by a government detached from the UK and sitting in Brussels.
 
In four years time a general election will be called and the people will go and make their voice heard. The result won't please everyone but it will be a Democratic decision.
 
Had we of remained part of the EU all we would have been voting for in four years time is for one person to sit at the table in the EU parliament. One person to sit and argue how this country is governed with 27 other people.
 
One size does not fit all. It doesn't work.
 
The way things were going the UK was handing more and more control over to the EU. I was becoming scared of what was coming next ... I don't like being 'controlled' by anyone but I accept that there has to be some form of control within our country and if we have to be controlled by anyone I'd rather be controlled by someone we can choose AND choose to wave goodbye to. As part of the EU we couldn't do that. No one voted for Junker (no normal person anyway) and no one can vote him out. For me that's one very good reason to be out

 

[iliveinazoo]

I know it was a few posts ago but Byron you seem to have missed the point - the German Chancellor is not showing clever political analysis in respect of Article 50 because she cannot invoke Article 50 for the UK, if she did invoke Article 50 then she would be taking Germany out of the EU.
 
There is no doubt that there is an article that forcibly evicts a country from the EU but that is not Article 50. In order to forcibly evict one member state it would need the backing of all of the other member states to enact.

 

[fluttermoth]

the take back control thing .... for me that was about Our country being 'controlled' by a government We Chose .... not by a government detached from the UK and sitting in Brussels.
 
In four years time a general election will be called and the people will go and make their voice heard. The result won't please everyone but it will be a Democratic decision.
 
Had we of remained part of the EU all we would have been voting for in four years time is for one person to sit at the table in the EU parliament. One person to sit and argue how this country is governed with 27 other people.
 
One size does not fit all. It doesn't work.
 
The way things were going the UK was handing more and more control over to the EU. I was becoming scared of what was coming next ... I don't like being 'controlled' by anyone but I accept that there has to be some form of control within our country and if we have to be controlled by anyone I'd rather be controlled by someone we can choose AND choose to wave goodbye to. As part of the EU we couldn't do that. No one voted for Junker (no normal person anyway) and no one can vote him out. For me that's one very good reason to be out

But it' not only the prime minister that represents the country; there's the EP. If there are things about the EU you don't like, have you voiced these concerns to your MEP?

 

[Akasha72]

No Fluttermoth but what would be the point? For Britain to change something it doesn't like all 28 (now 27) member states have to agree and not all 27 are going to and so nothing will ever change... except now I am wondering if things will change. I strongly believe that our decision to leave will have an impact on how things are done in Brussels. 
This week Marine Le Pen of France was speaking and applauding us for making a momentous decision that will change the way the EU is run. She intimated that France could be the next country to call a referendum. If that were to happen then the men and woman at the top of the EU tree are going to have to sit down and really think about things.
 
The EU has become too big and too controlling (in my opinion) and if more than one country votes to leave it could bring about the colapse of the EU as we currently know it and I think that could be a good thing because if it colapses then we could be at a point were we all have to get back around a table and talk it through and resurrect it but as it began ... a trade deal, a promise to share and share alike, to be friends ... but more crucially ... not be surrounded by walls when it comes to trade. As things are not we are not 'encouraged' to trade outside of the EU and that can't be right. It's a big world out there and we should all be free to trade with each other not just with 28 member states.
 
This is exactly what Mr Dyson has said. He's fed up of it costing him millions of pounds trying to get the people he wants to come and work for him. He was saying he was wanting to employ a very clever lady from China (i think it was China) but because she's not an EU citizen it was almost impossible for her to get a visa to come here to work. That's not right ... that's singling people out and then the EU tell us it's wrong that we'd like to explore the possibility of an Australian style points system! Talk about double standards!

 

[fluttermoth]

No Fluttermoth but what would be the point?

The point is that you're saying that the EU is undemocratic and unelected, and that you feel that no-ones listening to your views, but you do have a democratically elected representative in the European parliament; your MEP.

Can I ask the good people here; did any of you vote in the European elections? Have any of you ever written, emailed or otherwise made your MP/MEP aware of your views and how you want them to represent you, on any subject?

 

[ShinySideUp]

I did vote in the last European elections (for UKIP as a protest vote) and I always vote in the UK elections. I have indeed contacted my local MP in the past regarding some local issues but I would never waste my time contacting my MEP (indeed, I do not even know, nor care who he/she is) as they can do nothing, absolutely nothing. One voice, even if they chose to act on my behalf, is one of 751 MEPs ( http/www.europarl.org.uk ) of which only 73 represent the United Kingdom. All of those MEPs are subsumed into one parliamentary group or another. This link  http/www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/20150201PVL00010/Organisation points to the number of different groups in the European Parliament and there are many; some of them are only there to administrate other groups. It is overly complicated and expensive as every one of these people is paid a large salary and expenses and even move from Brussels to Strasbourg once a week -- because the French want them to -- at great expense. It is interesting to note that the Commissioners are not mentioned on this page but a search for them reveals that they operate at the behest of the EU president.
 
I could indeed write to my MEP, I will probably even get a reply but it will be written by an office flunkie who's sole job is to ensure he keeps his job.
 
Flutter, I appreciate you do not share my view and I can say I do not share yours...and that is how a democratic society functions. If it all goes through I shall regret not being in a european union, but the EU was an opportunity sadly missed and we have got ourselves a bloated, incompetent, and strangled bureaucracy that soaks up money to little world-changing effect.

 

[fluttermoth]

Flutter, I appreciate you do not share my view and I can say I do not share yours...and that is how a democratic society functions. If it all goes through I shall regret not being in a european union, but the EU was an opportunity sadly missed and we have got ourselves a bloated, incompetent, and strangled bureaucracy that soaks up money to little world-changing effect.

Sure, I understand your concerns about the EU and it's bureaucracy, although I don't agree, but no hard feelings, we can agree to disagree 

 

[Lateral Line]

I have lived in Denmark since 1998 and have a Danish wife. I saw in this thread, and have seen reported from a number of sources, that "Denmark is next" to leave. This puzzles me, where are people getting this idea from. It is certainly true we had a referendum earlier this year, but it concerned Denmarks relations with Europol, the EU wide police organisation, nothing to do with EU membership generally. I read Danish newspapers, watch Danish TV news etc., if this was true in any way, I would have thought it likely that I'd have heard about it.
 
>>> EDIT
 
Yes, it is certainly true that Denmark kept the Kroner currency, as did Sweden.