Enzymes

smurfyy_2k3

it's a shame stupidity isn't painfull
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ok, there have to be some kind of enzyme which break down ammonia into nitrites, so what if you immobilize them in a jelly (agar?) the could be like bioballs only with enzyme which could be put in the filter and give an instant cycle. btw i got this idea from a experiment we did in biology
 
Well, if you do put them into agar, they would need some ammonia to survive in. And I don't think you can put that agar bacteria back into a tank full of fish.
 
Well, if you do put them into agar, they would need some ammonia to survive in. And I don't think you can put that agar bacteria back into a tank full of fish.
enzyme are not living they are catalysts (biological) only an extreme ph or temperature (well not only there are a few other things) will denature them agar is a jelly not a bacteria
 
I'm no scientist, so perhaps bignose or other scientist can confirm/deny this.
surely the enzyme(s) is/are created by the nitrifying bacteria and would be usles without them?

I'm thinking this would be a good topic for the proposed scientific forum :nod:
 
you can "harvest enzymes" from the bacteria and they work just the same :good:

reply to the post below: as above enzyme are not living therefore they cannot die
 
I didn't say that the agar was bacteria. I meant that the bacteria (or enzymes in your case) wouldn't survive long without ammonia to consume.
 
i didnt think it was enzymes at all i thought it was just bacteria if it is somehting has to produce the enzymes in the first place ??

miles
 
This would only work as a kick start to the cycle surely. If you're only using bio enzymes rather than the bacteria itself then once it's done it's job and broken down the ammonia, nitrite etc, it's spent, then has to rely on the bacteria to take over. But it's been breaking down the food that the bacteria needs, so the cycle might not start under these conditions. There are already products out there that can be used to seed the tank with bacteria, but these are not entirely successful as it still takes time for the bacteria to colonise the filter.

It's a good idea, but i'm not sure how it work in practice.
 
They are bacteria.
no they aren't they are a product used by bacteria to break down substances usually a food for the bacteria


This would only work as a kick start to the cycle surely. If you're only using bio enzymes rather than the bacteria itself then once it's done it's job and broken down the ammonia, nitrite etc, it's spent, then has to rely on the bacteria to take over.
It's a good idea, but i'm not sure how it work in practice.
no as the enzymes don't denature providing you don't super heat them in which case the fish would die, or you know dip em in hydrochloric acid

:good:
 
Alright, let me take a stab at this. I actually am a scientist and spend a lot of my time binding proteins to latex beads, which is essentially what you're asking about. :D

As a lot of people have pointed out, the breakdown of ammonia into nitrate is likely a multi-step process and requires more than just two enzymes. The isolation and mass-production of these enzymes would be a very costly process if it were only used in the aquarium hobby. So even if a company did start production on these enzymes, you would probably end up paying through the nose for them.

But that's not the worst part. It's certainly possible to bind enzymes to plastic surfaces. You could even toss these plastics into your filter. Unfortunately, as you said, enzymes are most stable at a specific pH. It's unlikely that the pH of the water is the same as the internal pH of the bacterium the enzyme comes from. This means it will degrade quickly. The water in your aquarium is also full of products from other bacteria that will degrade the enzymes, namely proteases. Bacteria also often have proteases on their surfaces. When they start to colonize the pieces of enzyme-coated plastic in your filter, they will destroy the enzymes as well.

In my work with protein-coated beads, I have to keep the beads sterile and at 4 degrees Celsius in order to prevent bacteria and proteases from breaking them down. Even then, they only last for 1-2 months at the most. Free enzymes in an aquarium would last much less longer, likely on the order of weeks if not less.

Nonetheless, it's a really cool idea! Maybe with enough ingenuity, someone like yourself will make it happen. But as it stands, there's a lot of hurdles to skipping the bacterial colonization step in filters. Still a great idea though; keep up with the science! :)
 
Very intresting topic, great post TSP and great detail , i can definatly see were your coming from about how a company wouldn just do it for the greater good of fishkindathome lol but the idea behind this is great.

but ive been thinking arnt we jst complicating it even more i know alot of people on this forum knock it but tetra safe start is the nuts it realli helps when the old filter needs a boost and also it speeds up the fishless cycling process it halfed my time to fishless cycle my tank and my tank hasnt had anyproblems ! touch wood !

best bit is its like 4 quid a bottle and you just pour it lol

miles
 
I think more interestingly than helping the cycle as it has been mentioned there are products that do that already, and they are quite reasonably priced. Having an effective way of removing the nitrate from the water. I know plants absorb it and use it as food. But if the plants aren't growing as well as they could, the excess nitrates are used by algae causing many different algae blooms, hair algae, staghorn, green water, etc. There a resin bags that you add to the filter to absorb the nitrates, but even so in use i haven't noticed a marked reduction in the presence of nitrate in the water. If a stable culture could be developed that when added to the aquarium would break down the nitrates into nitrogen gas, (as happens in live rock for marine aquaria) then that would be an absolute goldmine!
 

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