Endler X Platie?

[Miss Dib Dabs]

Seems my male platie is trying to breed with the two female Endlers in the tank. Anyone come across a hybrid of these before? I have fry but some are most definitely full platie, the others.....as yet hard to tell.
It wasn't intentional, there is a male endler for the girls and the platie has 3 girls too but obviously boys being boys, they'll try it on with anything.
Am obviously concerned for the health of the fry that come out of this and wondered if anyone knew what to expect from this crossover.
Hugs,
P.

 

[iron maiden fan]

I would expect zero fry as they cannot be hybridized

 

[Miss Dib Dabs]

Any reason why? They are both livebearers. Naturally this is coming from someone who knows next to nothing about the internal workings of either species. The most obvious difference being their sizes but I would like to know why you say it's an out and out no.
In the long run this is a good thing for the endlers of course, which many try to keep pure bred but I'm still curious.
Hugs,
P.

 

[OohFeeshy]

Different somethingorrather. Endlers can hybridise with guppies, guppies with mollies and platys with swordtails, but nothing else.

 

[Miss Dib Dabs]

Ah well, fair enough. T'isn't stopping him having a darn good try tho.
Hugs,
P.

 

[Annastasia]

The reason is because of different genuses. If you look at their scientific names...

Endler - Poecilia sp.
Guppy - Poecilia reticulata
Molly - Poecilia sphenops, Poecilia latipinna and Poecilia velifera
Swordtail - Xiphophorus helleri
Platy - Xiphophorus maculatus

See how the Molly's, Guppy's and Endler's genuses all match up? That means they can breed. The genuses have to be the same for them to breed by themselves. Of course, they won't always make hybrids...Swordie/Platy hybrids are somewhat common, Molly/Guppy are pretty rare, and Guppy/Endlers are very common. Mollies and Endlers technically could breed, but I've never heard of it and I imagine it must be quite hard.

I've written an article on hybridizing Livebearers if you want to read more. Here's the link: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=108376

 

[imouse]

Molly/Guppy are pretty rare

IIRC, an article from PFK magazine stated that although Molly/Guppy is theoreticaly posible, the only results of this type of hybridisation has only been possible via human intervention aka lab tests with dna mixing and cell structure realignment technologies.


**OFF TOPIC**
Annastasia, I have been involved with livebearers for a number of years, yet some of the posts you have written are better than some of the detailed research i have read.
Many thanks to you for keeping the population well informed.


mouse

 

[Annastasia]

Actually, they can breed by themselves. I've seen one, and have heard a few accounts from very trustworthy sources. However, this is very rare for them to breed by themselves. Mostly it needs to be done through labs, as you said Imouse. So anyone out there thinking about trying to hybridise them...don't hold your breath.

Thanks imouse. That's really flattering to be compared to detailed research. And I'm glad I'm helping!

 

[OohFeeshy]

The reason is because of different genuses. If you look at their scientific names...

Genus.... THATS the word I was after I was going to put speicies, then though 'oh wait, of course they're different species '

 

[sylvia]

Strictly speaking it isn't down to them being in the same genus as the genus was set by humans. However, the reason fish are put in the same genus to begin with is because they are extremely closely related, as such, many fish in the same genus can hyrbidize. Closely related species can hybridize because they are very similar geneticaly. Having said that, there are several cichlid species that have been known to hybridize with fish outside their genus just as there are fish who's genus has been changed on several occasions or even who's species name has been changed and then there are fish that are in the same genus but wouldn't hybridize - eg: many of the tetras or sharks. This can also be down to several different things in itself - not being closely related is the first but there's also the issue of temperament and, of course, if one fish is a mouthbrooder and the other an egg-scatterer, you can't get them to breed, so their breeding behaviour matters too and then there's whether they'll even try to breed with each other or recognise each other as a possible mate and, of course, whether they can both live in the same sort of environment and so on.

 

[GuppyDude]

grr theres a pinned article on livbearers that can be crossed, people use it!

no, that would be like crossing an elephant with a horse, yes they have 4 legs, yes they are mammals, no they cant be crossed.

 

[Lynden]

Endlers are a very strange male-only species, continuity is possible since the male Endler can breed with reticulata females. The spermatazoa of Endlers is very dominant, and some males will always be Endlers.
The genus of platys was once Platypoecilius, and the genus of mollies was once Molliensa, that explains their common names. However, I have never heard of a guppy with a molly, but it seems very possible. But an Endler and a platy seems really weird, but since the sperm of Endlers is so dominant, it could happen, but not with the results you were probably hoping for. But the sperm still has to mix with the platys egg, so that could rule it out. I also have a topic called An Oscar and a Blue acara on this forum, it explains another example of hybridization.

Heres a link:

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=108431



This is off topic but still, you could cross an elephant with a horse by genetically splicing their DNA. Just look at a mule, that is a cross between a horse and a donkey. Horses and elephants are not at seperate corners of the mammal gene pool, and could, theoretically, be crossed. So why not fishes?

 

[sylvia]

Actualy, it doesn't work like that - unless you are only inserting specific genes (by splicing I mean), you can't breed an elephant to a horse any more than you could breed a percula clown to a danio. The DNA simply won't match up so the offsping wouldn't be viable - it wouldn't even start to form. Fish that are closely related like guppies and endler's - or you could use the mammal example of tigers and lions - have DNA that is similar enough to be compatible so that viable offspring can be produced. Provided their breeding behaviour also matches up, the fish can reproduce naturaly - as is the case with platies/swords or endlers/guppies. You also can't compare a donkey X horse with an elephant X horse. Donkeys and horses are part of the same family and thus relatively closely related - elephants don't even have hooves and evolved completely seperate to horses. If it were as simple as 'they are both mammals so they can have offspring', humans could reproduce with tapirs.

Also, endler's are not a male-only species. You are probably aware that p. reticulata is the guppy - how many times have you heard people saying DON'T cross guppies with endler's? My point being, that if there were no female endler's, reproducing a pure strain would be impossible. Now I admit that the hobby does sometimes get it wrong but I have seen female endler's and though they look very similar to wild guppies, they are not the same fish. Also, if you were to breed an endler to guppies for several generations, there is no way they would retain their patterning or, moreover, their distinctive fin shape - they have a very characteristic, very erect dorsal and a caudal with sword extensions. You have to keep in mind that guppy X endler hybrids are fertile themselves so can reproduce further. Many strains of 'domestic' guppy are this kind of cross - but you get an intermediate between a guppy and endler if you cross them with different pure guppy strains. By saying that endler's are male-only and must breed with female guppies, you are also saying that endler's occur with guppies and regularly cross-breed with them. As far as I know, endler's don't occur with guppies (or at least DIDN'T in the past before the guppy became so widespread) - this was also part of the debate over whether they are a distinct species due to the different localities. The fact that there was a debate over their distinctiveness must also mean what you are saying is incorrect - no one would say the endler is a distinct species if it bred with guppies - that would just mean its a strain of guppy as many of the characteristics of fin shape and color are sex-linked in guppies so it would be perfectly feasable that the male would be the only ones to display these shapes/colors. Anyway, in the wild, you don't get intermedite crosses - you get guppies, and you get endler's. If you had guppies (both male and female) and endler's (only male) living together, you would see crosses, which you don't. This both suggests they reproduce with their own kind and that they do not live in the same areas.

One last thing, read the very first line in this thread - 'male platy with 2 FEMALE endler's'.

 

[Synirr]

This is off topic but still, you could cross an elephant with a horse by genetically splicing their DNA. Just look at a mule, that is a cross between a horse and a donkey. Horses and elephants are not at seperate corners of the mammal gene pool, and could, theoretically, be crossed. So why not fishes?

Like sylvia said, it doesn't work like that in the animal kingdom. Animals simply do not tolerate chromosomal deletions or monosomy, and when the genes of two species which are too distantly related to hybridize combine, the results are the same. The counterpart of a set of genes carried by one species is missing because the other species doesn't carry an equivalent set, so the combination is nonviable. Yay for genetic imprinting!
However, it is possible to create chimeras of distantly related species, but this is something that has to be done in a lab. Whether such chimeras can survive to adulthood is another matter. Basically, you slap together groups of developing cells from the two species and get them to combine into one zygote. Rat-mouse chimeras have been grown in labs and can survive to adulthood, and human-rabbit chimeras were created in China, but destroyed very early in their development (probably wouldn't have been able to survive for long anyway.) Interestingly, same-species chimeras are naturally occurring. Even in humans, it's possible for two fertilized eggs to fuse together in the womb and form a person who appears perfectly normal but has two different sets of DNA!

 

[pica_nuttalli]

so i could be my own twin?

i think it's important to point out (in order to clarify Synirr's post) that not all animals have the same number of chromosomes. humans should have 23 chromosomal pairs, but other creatures can have many more pairs or many fewer. i think that a certain species of fruitfly clocks in with the minimum number at 4 chromosomes. elephants have 56 chromosomes and horses have 64! obviously, an elephant x horse hybrid would be highly unlikely to make it outside the womb.

anyways, this page has some interesting information about mammilian crossbreeding. it gives a nice quicky examination of both possible and improbable hybrids.