Eep Forgot Dechlorinator!

nckate

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So I did my 40% WC, cycle-with-fish progressing nicely, added my 1/2 t of baking soda (my water out of the tap is incredibly soft, and without the baking soda I have wild pH swings.) Plugged everything back in, fed the fish, congratulated myself on a spill- and splash-free job ... and realized five minutes later I forgot the declorinator.

I immediately panicked and added two full capfulls of Prime.

Did I nuke my filter bacteria?
 
How long has the tank been set up? Have you previously overdosed the dechlor like most of us do to err on the side of caution? If you don't run carbon in your filters, the previous overdosed dechlor atoms will remain in the water column waiting to attach to a chlorine/chloramine atom so you may be OK.

Your fish would have been the first to react to chlorine/chloramine levels. Did you see them acting stressed or gasping? If not, you are probably OK.

Test your water in a few hours and then tomorrow to know for sure.
 
Hooray, I now have a $^*#@! ammonia reading. (between 0.25 and 0.5 -- then again, I do sometimes get them.) And I run carbon.

The tank has been set up for a little over six weeks, but I didn't get a nitrite reading until two weeks ago. I was so close!

Fish are showing no signs of stress whatsoever.

Great, now I'm going to be fretting about this all day and weekend ...
 
I never use it on water changed anymore. Not had any probs.
 
You should be fine and up to 0.5 for ammonia is ok short term. Don't worry. Some people don't use dechlor at all.. not that I would recommend it though. Also, if you have soft tap water chances are it won't contain too much chlorine anyways.
 
Some people, when doing smaller PWC's (10%) or top-offs with chlorine treated water are usually going to be OK but chloramine is far more stable and does not break down and out gas like chlorine does. For people with chlorine treated water, they can let it sit out for 48 hours and most of the chlorine will dissipate but chloramine will not breakdown and dissipate so easily.

Chloramine treated water will not instantly kill bacteria but does kill most bacteria if in contact with the bacteria for more than 5 minutes.

Hopefully, not all of your N-bacteria were killed and the ones that survived can reproduce within a few days to salvage your cycle. Test your water daily and do 25% PWC's as needed to keep the ammonia levels safe. What is your tank's pH and temperature? Use the charts here, http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/AmmoniaTox.html, to find what the maximum safe level of ammonia would be based on your pH and temp.

Also, remember that if you have chloramine treated tap water, it is made by binding chlorine and ammonia so your dechlor product breaks the bind and detoxifies the chlorine and normally the ammonia is instantly handled by the N-bacteria in your filter. Here is my blog article on chlorine/chloramine with information provided by a series of emails between me and my water utility chemist. http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/03/chlo...nformation.html
 
I never use it on water changed anymore. Not had any probs.

If you have non-chlorinated well water or spring water, this would be OK, but I would not recommend doing this if you have regular tap water treated with chlorine or chloramine. Sure, the chemicals will eventually breakdown and outgas but they will burn your fishes gills for the days it takes for the chemicals to breakdown. Just like our lungs, your fishes gills, when damaged too much, will cause them severe health problems and an early death.
 
I never use it on water changed anymore. Not had any probs.

If you have non-chlorinated well water or spring water, this would be OK, but I would not recommend doing this if you have regular tap water treated with chlorine or chloramine. Sure, the chemicals will eventually breakdown and outgas but they will burn your fishes gills for the days it takes for the chemicals to breakdown. Just like our lungs, your fishes gills, when damaged too much, will cause them severe health problems and an early death.
Strangely, this is not supported by the scientific papers bignose found. It looks like the bacteria in the colony can use the ammonia in a chloramine molecule and the resulting chlorine ion is not a problem.

Many people have been going for years without dechlorinators and not noticed great problems such as mass early deaths in fish. Possible explanations for this revolve around the huge colonies of bacteria we culture compared to the numbers that the water companies are trying to kill off, meaning the chlorine can be used up very quickly trying to hit the filter colony, but makes little dent, if any, in the population so the tank isn't affected.
 
Are they using aged water treated with chlorine or water right out the tap treated with chloramine? I promise you that if you fill a tank with chloramine treated un-aged water, it will kill off your bacteria and severely damage your fishes gills before the chloramine breaks down.

If you don't believe me, take one of your filters and put it on an empty tank. Fill the tank with chloramine treated tap water and run the filter. Next day, dose it with 4-5ppm of ammonia and see if it still cycles it properly. This only shows what happens to the N-bacteria... not the fishes gills.

Further, most dechlor products also treat heavy metals which are found in most public utility waters. I could show you water reports for most cities in America and the "other" stuff that is in the water would amaze you. It's not just H2O anymore! :D
 
Are they using aged water treated with chlorine or water right out the tap treated with chloramine? I promise you that if you fill a tank with chloramine treated un-aged water, it will kill off your bacteria and severely damage your fishes gills before the chloramine breaks down.

If you don't believe me, take one of your filters and put it on an empty tank. Fill the tank with chloramine treated tap water and run the filter. Next day, dose it with 4-5ppm of ammonia and see if it still cycles it properly. This only shows what happens to the N-bacteria... not the fishes gills.

Further, most dechlor products also treat heavy metals which are found in most public utility waters. I could show you water reports for most cities in America and the "other" stuff that is in the water would amaze you. It's not just H2O anymore! :D
A couple of british fishkeepers do exactly this. They have been using chloraminated water straight from the tap for at least 6 months when I first learned, and it must be 12 months now. They found no spikes in ammonia. After water changes up to 40% the chloramine dissipated from 5ppm to 0 within 5 minutes (based on swimming pool tests) and the only thing they noticed with their fish is that the colours are brighter.

They have found that a mature tank (one running for 6 months before stopping any dechlorination treatment) will clear the chlorine inside 5 minutes, but that newer tanks take longer, up to an hour.

Obviously the observations are not scientific, and only give a couple of instances, and do not cover the effects of chlorine based chemicals on fish (is there scientific evidence of what level of chlorine based chemicals is necessary in the water before it really will affect the fish?). However, as noted above, the bacteria that deal with nitrogenous waste are increasingly becoming immune to chloramines, so much so that the water companies are worried about other, far nastier, bacteria being able to gain a foot hold in our water supply. Consider this post by bignose a while ago on what tests on water found.

Well, a quick perusal of the scientific literature came up with some rather surprising results.

Firstly, and most surprising to me, the problem ammonia oxidizing bacteria (AOB) and nitrite oxidizing bacteria (NOB) growing in water utilities' facilities is becoming a somewhat serious issue. The chloramine does in fact, promote the growth of AOB and NOB, with the consequences -- written is a nice non-threatening way as -- "...the addition of chloramines can lead to biological instability in a drinking water distribution system by promoting the growth of nitrifying bacteria..." and "The resulting reduction in chloramine residual and development of a microbial community in the distribution system lead to water quality deterioration and violation of drinking water regulations." I think that I might very well have put a little more emphasis on violations of the drinking water regulations.

Basically, because the AOB and NOB grow, they excrete other organic compounds allowing other bacteria to grow. At the very minimum, this additional bacteria will require more chloramine to kill it off, but then, more chloramine promotes more growth of AOB and NOB, and I think you can see where this cycle is going... Here is the really bad news, with this extra growth, all that stuff we don't want in there could grow now, like the coliform bacteria (E. coli -- think spinach), and viruses, and Guardia lamblia and so on. All of these are pretty strictly required to be below certain levels by the U.S. EPA, and similarly in other countries.

Secondly, the really interesting part is that in lab test after lab test, the recommended exposure times and concentrations of chloramines do their jobs. The chloramines in the lab kill off all the organics, including the AOB and NOB. However, at the utility side of the issue, nitrification episodes are rather commonplace. One recent study found 63% of U.S. chloramining utilities and 64% of Southern Australian utilities tested positive for nitrifying bacteria.

One hypothesis for the discrepancy between the laboratory studies and operating results is that there are AOB strains
growing in full-scale systems that possess a greater chloramine resistance than those studied in the kinetic experiments. Whether the AOB strains used in earlier kinetic studies are representative of significant strains involved in full-scale nitrification episodes has not been confirmed, since there are no published evaluations of AOB diversity in chloraminated distribution systems.

This quote, and the above ones, from Regan, Harrington, and Noguera: "Ammonia- and Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacterial Communities in a Pilot-Scale Chloraminated Drinking Water Distribution System" Applied and Enviromental Microbiology 2002. The study where the %'s came from was Wolfe et al. "Occurrence of nitrification in chloranimated distribution systems" Journal (American Water Works Association), 1996

In other words, the strains that are in the water utilities have become more resistant to chloramines, and can indeed use the ammonia present as sustenance.

And, back to fishtanks, where do the AOB and NOB come from in the first place? Well, if you used tap water, they probably came from your water utility, and if a resistant strain has grown there... that same chloramine resistant strain is probably now growing in your tank too. The Regan et al. study cited above and Regan et al. "Diversity of nitrifying bacteria in full-scale cloranimated distribution systems" Water Research, 2003, was among the first to use DNA sequencing to distinguish all the different AOB and NOB that are growing. Some of the names should be pretty familiar: AOBs Nitrosospira, Nm. oligotropha and NOBs Nitrospira, Nitrobacter

So, it seems that AOB and so on can become resistant, or at the very least, as mentioned in the above posts, the chloramine levels are certainly not designed to sterilize a colony of bacteria as large in number as we culture in our tanks and so chloraminated water probably is not going to ruin a fishtank.

All that said, I think I am still going to continue to use my conditioner. It is pretty cheap, and better safe than sorry. However, I am not going to fret if I forget, or if a water change is due up and I haven't been to the LFS lately to get a new bottle.

Oh, and of course, I will now be nice and worried about our water
All that said, I think I am still going to continue to use my conditioner. It is pretty cheap, and better safe than sorry. However, I am not going to fret if I forget, or if a water change is due up and I haven't been to the LFS lately to get a new bottle.

Oh, and of course, I will now be nice and worried about our water supply.
 
Uhhh, you're probably ok....if you didn't commit bacterial genecide.Otherwise, as stated many many times previous to this, your NB's will do most of the work for you, like scrubbing bubbles only better!
 
Seven hours later, and there's a trace amount (0.25 ppm) of ammonia in the water, but that's not unusual. Greenville uses lots and lots of chloramine in their water, which was why I was especially worried.

I am never, ever cycling a tank with fish again. Too much d*** work.

BTW, the temperature is at 78F right now, and I have three young opaline gouramis (two to two and a half inches each) and and a juvenile BN (around two and a half inches) in there. Could they stand it if I turned the temperature up to, say, 82F? The faster this cycle goes, the less stress on the fish and the less stress on ME.
 
i would think your ok as well.... prime is a great product and it seems like you added it soon enough.

myself i would be more concerned about he quote below.


I added my 1/2 t of baking soda (my water out of the tap is incredibly soft, and without the baking soda I have wild pH swings.)
I have soft water too that is 100% pure so i dont use declohr, but i also dont need anything for my Ph, my ph is high but it is stable which is whats important. The fact that your having ph swings may be more of an issue. Fish dont like ph swings.

If i remember right baking soda raises ph, sounds like you need somthing to make it stable like Proper Ph.


Proper Ph:http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl36...sproperph752pak

I have gouramis three gold ones, my tank temp is 81.9
 

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