Early Columnaris?? Please help my guppies!!

[blyatboy]

Hello all. A couple of days ago, I noticed a guppy with small, raised, white growths near the base of her pectoral fins, as well as what looked like dead white skin on the rim of her eyes. I isolated her immediately. The day after, another guppy showed the same symptoms near the eyes.
It could be popeye, but I'm not sure. I started to suspect a bacterial infection, since I read that popeye is a symptom of that.





Last night, I started to notice a very thin white perimeter on the lips of some guppies in the main tank. It is not protruding right now and doesn't affect their eating. Granted, I can't be sure if they were always like this, but I'm starting to worry that it is columnaris.





Ammonia and nitrite are 0. Nitrates around 40ppm. The tank is admittedly overstocked and I am starting 20% daily water changes.
Am I overreacting? I cannot observe any behavioral changes yet. None of the fish have "saddleback" or torn fins either.
I have already prepared some medicated food with Kanaplex and Metroplex, but I'm still uncertain. Should I begin dosing? Or wait for more symptoms before pulling the trigger? What should I look out for?
Any insight or advice would be highly appreciated!

 

[GaryE]

A lot of different bacteria will cause infections around/behind the eyes. Columnaris (Flavibacter) is just one.

I would isolate the affected individuals. You can try the meds, adjusted to the size of your isolation tank.

The cause is in your text, as you said you are starting 20% water changes. In a tank that overstocked, you should have been doing 40% at least once a week, from the get go. Whenever I have seen popeye type infections in a fish that wasn't very old, it has been water quality related. Overfeeding, not doing adequate water changes, or having a breakdown in the filtration will do it.

You don't seem to be facing an epidemic, and you may be able to stop the slow spread by practicing prevention and getting control of the water situation.

 

[blyatboy]

A lot of different bacteria will cause infections around/behind the eyes. Columnaris (Flavibacter) is just one.

I would isolate the affected individuals. You can try the meds, adjusted to the size of your isolation tank.

The cause is in your text, as you said you are starting 20% water changes. In a tank that overstocked, you should have been doing 40% at least once a week, from the get go. Whenever I have seen popeye type infections in a fish that wasn't very old, it has been water quality related. Overfeeding, not doing adequate water changes, or having a breakdown in the filtration will do it.

You don't seem to be facing an epidemic, and you may be able to stop the slow spread by practicing prevention and getting control of the water situation.

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate the insight.

I usually do a ~30% change every week, but I had a feeling it wasn't enough. I've started medicating via food, and I'm going to put in extra water changes this week.

What do you think about the white spots on the lips? It's hard to catch but to my eye, it looks more "crusty" than "fungal".

 

[GaryE]

@emeraldking is our resident fancy livebearer expert. his knowledge of these fish and their issues is vast. I've tagged him so he'll see this when he logs on.

 

[Fishfunn]

Hello all. A couple of days ago, I noticed a guppy with small, raised, white growths near the base of her pectoral fins, as well as what looked like dead white skin on the rim of her eyes. I isolated her immediately. The day after, another guppy showed the same symptoms near the eyes.
It could be popeye, but I'm not sure. I started to suspect a bacterial infection, since I read that popeye is a symptom of that.





Last night, I started to notice a very thin white perimeter on the lips of some guppies in the main tank. It is not protruding right now and doesn't affect their eating. Granted, I can't be sure if they were always like this, but I'm starting to worry that it is columnaris.





Ammonia and nitrite are 0. Nitrates around 40ppm. The tank is admittedly overstocked and I am starting 20% daily water changes.
Am I overreacting? I cannot observe any behavioral changes yet. None of the fish have "saddleback" or torn fins either.
I have already prepared some medicated food with Kanaplex and Metroplex, but I'm still uncertain. Should I begin dosing? Or wait for more symptoms before pulling the trigger? What should I look out for?
Any insight or advice would be highly appreciated!

If you have access to antibiotics, definitely treat with Maracyn (erythromycin). Your fish has popeye, and I found erythromycin to quickly heal this bacterial disease.

Please keep your water changes up to date so these types of bacterial diseases can be kept at bay.

 

[Colin_T]

Can you post a picture showing the entire tank so we can see roughly how many fish are in it?
Is there a Gibbiceps catfish (pleco) in the tank?
If yes, how big is it?

What is the black stuff on the gravel?

How long has the tank been set up for?
What are the tank dimensions (length x width x height)?

How long have you had the fish for?
Have you added anything to the tank in the 2 weeks before this started?

What sort of filter is on the tank?
How often and how do you clean the filter?

Do you gravel clean the substrate when you do a water change?

What is the GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness) and pH of your water supply and aquarium water?
This information can usually be obtained from your water supply company's website (Water Analysis Report) or by telephoning them. If they can't help you, take a glass full of tap water to the local pet shop and get them to test it for you. Write the results down (in numbers) when they do the tests. And ask them what the results are in (eg: ppm, dGH, or something else).

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The white film over the fish's eyes is excess mucous produced by the fish because something in the water is irritating the fish. It can also be excess mucous produced by the fish to cover injured eyes. However, fish rarely damage both eyes at the same time so it's more likely something in the water.

I need pictures from the side of the fish showing the white marks at the base of the pectoral fin.

The white lip/ mouth on the yellow male cobra guppy is a concern and could be the start of Columnaris (aka mouth fungus).

The white bit on the female blue tail guppy (last picture) does not look like Columnaris and could be excess mucous.

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Metronidazole is an antibiotic and won't do anything to help and should only be used to treat internal protozoan infections in fish.

Kanaplex is Kanamycin, an antibiotic. It might treat Columnaris but I have never used it so can't say yes or no.

Salt can treat minor infections and slow or stop early Columnaris infections and can help with eye infections if they aren't caused by Fish TB (I doubt this is Fish TB).

I would clean the tank, add salt and monitor over the next 2 days. Maybe add the Kanamycin but see if anyone here knows whether it treats Columnaris. You can also do a Google search to see what antibiotics treat Columnaris.

You need to do bigger water changes too. I would be doing a 75% water change a couple of times a week.
If you do a 25% water change each week you leave behind 75% of the bad stuff in the water.
If you do a 50% water change each week you leave behind 50% of the bad stuff in the water.
If you do a 75% water change each week you leave behind 25% of the bad stuff in the water.

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SALT
You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt), swimming pool salt, or any non iodised salt (sodium chloride) to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres (5 gallons) of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria, fish, plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket (2 litres or 1/2 gallon) of tank water and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.

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Before treating with anything (including salt), do the following.
Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge. This removes the biofilm on the glass and the biofilm will contain lots of harmful bacteria, fungus, protozoans and various other microscopic life forms.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate. The water change and gravel cleaning will reduce the number of disease organisms in the water and provide a cleaner environment for the fish to recover in. It also removes a lot of the gunk and this means any medication can work on treating the fish instead of being wasted killing the pathogens in the gunk.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks. However, if the filter is less than 6 weeks old, do not clean it. Wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use the media. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn. Cleaning the filter means less gunk and cleaner water with fewer pathogens so any medication (if needed) will work more effectively on the fish.

Increase surface turbulence/ aeration to maximise the dissolved oxygen in the water. Most medications and salt reduce the oxygen level in the water. Increasing aeration helps to maximise the oxygen level and this helps the fish.

 

[blyatboy]

Thanks for the detailed response @Colin_T . Here's a pic of the tank:

The tank is a 20 gal, measuring 60cm*36cm, water level at 40cm.

I consider the pleco the main character, so I'm very weary about adding salt. He's only around 6-7 inches long.

There is no black "stuff" in the gravel, it's just the floor of the tank and black rocks.

I've had this setup for 1.5 years, and before that, the same fish and filter in a smaller tank. There have not been new additions to the tank for 2 years, and all the guppies were born in the tank. The plant on the right was added a couple of months ago, quarantined for 2 weeks and sanitized with hydrogen peroxide beforehand.

The filter is on top of the tank. The mechanical filter inside (sponge) is rinsed weekly with tank water, while the media itself is rarely touched (maybe rinsed once in a couple of months). There is another sponge filter on the left, just for added bacteria and a bit of agitation. This one has not been cleaned, and admittedly there's quite a bit of gunk on the bottom.

I do my best to vacuum the poop out of the gravel when I water change, which is typically 1/3 weekly. I will have to report back on the GH, KH, and pH of the water supply, but the pH in the tank is generally a bit above 7 (say 7.5 - 8).

The white marks at the base of the first guppy's fins are gone. She's been quarantined for 2 nights now, with salt in the water, Ich-X (I didn't know if it was fungal at first so I added it), and two feedings of the medicated food. Her eyes look better too now. The guppy in the second picture, however, still has a bit of white around the eye (she only had one eye affected to start with).

I did, however, find another guppy just now with one white spot on her pectoral fin in the main tank. Regrettably, I am unable to get a better pic of it.

Everybody tells me that salt and snails don't mix well, so that's another reason I'm not keen on adding salt to the main tank right now. At the same time, I have read that salt is effective against columnaris. I'm not able to relocate the pleco, so do you reckon a salt dip could work in lieu of salting the whole tank?

I plan on doing 1/4 water changes daily starting now. Do you think I need to do more?

Really appreciate the input.

 

[Colin_T]

Big water changes dilute disease organisms and nutrients much better than small water changes. Do a 75% water change from now on and gravel clean the substrate. Clean both filters too.

Salt will not harm snails or plecos unless you add heaps of salt and 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres of water will not affect snails or suckermouth catfish. Start with 1 heaped tablespoon of salt per 20 litres, monitor for 48 hours and add more if there's no improvement.

Don't do salt baths, all that does is stress the fish. You chase them around, catch them, lift them out of water and that can potentially damage their skin and allow more pathogens in. Then you put them in salt water for a bit before catching, lifting and moving back to the main tank, which still has all the disease organisms in to reinfect the fish. You need to treat the main tank if you are going to treat it.

 

[emeraldking]

Saw this thread too late. Sorry!
Colin has already given you some wise advice.

 

[Seisage]

I can't say for sure whether this is columnaris, or if it's even bacterial. In order to do that, you would need to swab the affected areas and culture the sample on an agar plate and then look to see what (if any) particular bacteria have grown.

However, I will warn you that if you do decide to treat the fish as if they do have columnaris, do not use fungal treatments. Columnaris (Flavobacterium columnare) is a bacterium, as the genus name suggests, and medications that target fungus will not work. The names "cotton mouth" and "mouth fungus" are commonly used, but misleading.

Kanamycin can treat columnaris, especially when combined with nitrofurazone, but it is a very potent antibiotic, and hard on fish's kidneys. Plus, without having a solid idea of what you're dealing with, you could potentially be stressing the fish with a medication for nothing. In the world of ornamental fishkeeping, we often are stuck playing the guessing game in the face of a lack of diagnostic tools. It's just a risk you have to decide whether you want to take.

I would stick with a series of daily water changes for ~10 days and see if that helps. If it doesn't, then you can try a more powerful treatment like salt. You should definitely remove the pleco and snails beforehand if you go that route though.