Dwarf Hatchets

[Myrkk]

Hi,
I got some dwarf hatchets 5+ mths ago and they have been a nightmare. I didn't notice until I got them home that some of them were looking a little less than optimum, small, not well muscled at the front as they should be... I persevered with them and they were all looking good. In the last couple of months though they've got one thing after another, ich, think probably parasite infection (after speaking to the lps 'cause they were flashing against items lots) and now one has a lovely big white lump on one side which sticks out from the flesh by around 1mm and had some red veining from it.

I say had because I've started them on the ich treatment again while I figure out what is going on. I see no point in putting chemical after chemical in there.

Tank parameters are all wnl. Only stressor is I was on holiday last week (this wasn't there when I went away). I've done a 30% water change on alternate days since I've been back and as I said used ich treatment which seems to have taken away the red veining and the mass looks slightly smaller.

Any suggestions? I've never had problems with this tank until I put these hatchets in. I'm wondering if ihey were wild caught and if they are stressed in the tank. It's a 90L tank with moderate to high planting. It has a still'ish water area and an area of movement, they seem to prefer the moving water over the stiller water for some reason and always have. None of the other fish seem to have any problems although I did see a tetra flashing yesterday once.

 

[Colin_T]

can you post a photo or video of the sick fish showing the white spot?

Ichthyopthirius (ich or whitespot) produce small white dots on the fins and body. They do not show any red under or around them.

Ulcers can start off as a white dot they gets bigger and develops red around the edges. Eventually the white part ruptures and the entire area becomes an open red wound.

If the fish scratched itself then it might have developed a minor infection and fungus has settled on top of the infection.

White spot (ich) can only be introduced into a tank by contaminated fish, plants, water or other items that have been in a contaminated tank. If the fish did not have ich when you first got them, and you have not added anything new since then, it is unlikely to be ich.

If you increase the water changes to 50-75% and do a complete gravel clean each time you do the water change, you will dilute any harmful pathogens much more than by doing a 30% water change.

 

[Byron]

First we need to confirm the species. A Google search of "dwarf hatchetfish" turns up at least three species, and a fourth ("Marble") possibly. Common names are usually useless as they can be local in origin. I will assume it is one of the species in the genus Carnegiella, and I have or have had all of these for years. If you can pin down the exact species, I may be able to offer more specific advice, so I will go with general for the present.

All of the species in this genus are delicate, and all will be wild caught. So water parameters is of prime importance. Can you explain "tank parameters are all wnl"? I need to know the GH (general or total hardness), pH and temperature. Then, do you have floating plants? And what other fish are in this tank? And what treatment have you used so far?

I don't like commenting on disease, as this is risky unless one can be absolutely certain. Ich may be your only real issue, and this genus is especially prone to ich. [Can you post a photo of the fish with the lump?] They are, as I said, sensitive and delicate fish (if the species turns out to be the pygmy, C. myersi, it is extremely delicate), and treatments have to be carefully applied. Salt and heat is much safer than any chemical preparations, but I won't go into all that until we have pinned down the other data asked for above.

 

[Myrkk]

Thanks for the reply, I'll try and get a photo but I'm pants at photos and worse at posting them.
The ich was the first thing a couple of months ago, it cleared up well after the treatment.
At the moment, I don't know what it has, it's too big a spot and doesn't look like ich but that's what's in the cupboard so that's what I'm using until I figure out what it really is. I haven't gone back to the lps as they were not too sure when I spoke to them about it last time.
The ich tx has seen it perk up a little, moving around more, less lethargic and eating well which is a plus.

 

[Byron]

Thanks for the reply, I'll try and get a photo but I'm pants at photos and worse at posting them.
The ich was the first thing a couple of months ago, it cleared up well after the treatment.
At the moment, I don't know what it has, it's too big a spot and doesn't look like ich but that's what's in the cupboard so that's what I'm using until I figure out what it really is. I haven't gone back to the lps as they were not too sure when I spoke to them about it last time.
The ich tx has seen it perk up a little, moving around more, less lethargic and eating well which is a plus.

Three of us have posted almost at the same time...can you provide the data/info requested in post #3 please.

 

[Myrkk]

it is c. myersi

I've not taken the parameters for a couple of days so will go take them again before I post them

 

[Byron]

it is c. myersi

I've not taken the parameters for a couple of days so will go take them again before I post them

That is not ich, but I am not going to guess as to what it is.

Parameters...what is the GH of your source water? This is not going to change (unless the source is variable). You should have a pH test kit, so test that. And the temp?

And what is the ich medication you have used?

 

[Myrkk]

pH7
NH4 <0.05
NO2 <0.01
NO3 <0.5
hardness 2

temp 25
eSHa EXIT anti-whitespot treatment.

3-4 weeks ago were tx'd with ESHa dgex, against skin flukes, gill flukes and tapeworms

yep there are floating plants in the tank

tankmates are
red phantom tetras x 8
blue ram x 2
some amano shrimp (3)

 

[Byron]

pH7
NH4 <0.05
NO2 <0.01
NO3 <0.5
hardness 2

temp 25
eSHa EXIT anti-whitespot treatment.

yep there are floating plants in the tank

tankmates are
red phantom tetras x 8
blue ram x 2
some amano shrimp (3)

On the test numbers...ammonia and nitrite should be zero, but these numbers in hundreds of 1 degree are so low they are probably not an issue. No problems here.

I do not know anything about Esha Exit, and I cannot find the ingredients anywhere on their site, so can't offer much on this.

Ich may well have been present, and may still be, and this species is extremely prone to it. In future, when this species is available, wait for a couple weeks after it arrives in the store before acquiring them; this is advisable with any delicate species, as the extreme stress of capture/transport may weaken them so much they cannot possibly survive.

How many of these hatchets are left, and are all except the one in the photo OK?

 

[Myrkk]

I have all the hatchets I purchased still and this is the only one with any issues. I obviously can't say if it is the same one that had the ich.
I was in the lps recently and saw they had 4 of the batch left, all looked poorly.

the ingredients are
ethacridine lactate 6.3mg
malachite green oxalate 0.31mg
methylene blue 3.98 mg

it says after in water, so I assume at the dose rate they recommend. It doesn't say per ml or any such

 

[Myrkk]

I'm actually wondering if I can see a parasite in img590, the side on one. Just under the pec fin there seems to be a little thread?! Is it just me?

 

[Byron]

I have all the hatchets I purchased still and this is the only one with any issues. I obviously can't say if it is the same one that had the ich.
I was in the lps recently and saw they had 4 of the batch left, all looked poorly.

How many did you get/do you have now, minus this one which is most likely going to die (I'm still not going to comment on the issue, it would only be guessing)? This fish needs a largish group, so getting the last four may help. You got yours five months ago, are the four left in the store from the same shipment? As I have said, this species is very sensitive and delicate, and store conditions will never be to their liking. Maybe they will let you have them at a discount?

the ingredients are
ethacridine lactate 6.3mg
malachite green oxalate 0.31mg
methylene blue 3.98 mg

it says after in water, so I assume at the dose rate they recommend. It doesn't say per ml or any such

These ingredients will be stressful to this species (and all characins for that matter) so I personally would not continue using it. How long have you had it in the water? If more than a week, I would do water changes to remove some of it. Fresh water is a marvelous cure when fish are under stress, and they will be with most any medication.

 

[Myrkk]

I bought 7 and still have them all (6 if you take this one out of the equation). Yes, they are the same shipment (the 4 left in the shop).

I did a water change, put the dose in the water, dosed the next day, next day water change, next day dose, next day water change and dose etc etc

Tomorrow is another water change day. Been adding lots of stress coat to the water changes to try and help.

 

[Byron]

I bought 7 and still have them all (6 if you take this one out of the equation). Yes, they are the same shipment (the 4 left in the shop).

I did a water change, put the dose in the water, dosed the next day, next day water change, next day dose, next day water change and dose etc etc

Tomorrow is another water change day. Been adding lots of stress coat to the water changes to try and help.

That one is likely to die from that tumour or growth or whatever it may be. I would recommend you acquire the other four. Hatchets do better the more there are; strength in numbers, so to speak.

API StressCoat may or may not help here. One drawback is that it contains aloe vera and this is believed to be damaging to fish gills over time. I personally would not use this product. What is your regular water conditioner? That should be all you need, and added only for the volume of fresh water added, not for the whole tank.

Dealing with stress is extremely important, but rather than adding chemicals which will always increase stress because any substance in the water gets inside the fish and into the bloodstream, it is better to change water. Fresh water, assuming the parameters are reasonably the same, cannot be overdone. Not to extreme though. Clean water, a quiet environment, will promote less stress and increase fish health. Fish have the ability to fight off many disease issues; 95% of all fish disease is directly due to stress; the pathogen may be present, but it is stress that causes the fish to succumb in 95% of the time.

 

[Colin_T]

can you post a picture of one of the healthy fish, showing side view? And if possible show us the other side of the sick fish. A short video clip might show us something too

The red is blood and the fish looks fat on one side, which would indicate something growing inside the fish. The body also looks a little opaque and that can be a muscle wasting disease.

If the white growth is coming out from under the pectoral fin, then it is probably a tumor and there is no cure. If it is a tumor then it is not contagious either so it shouldn't spread to the others. However, if it's a parasitic worm then the others might also have it. There are some worms & insect larvae that can get into fish and live in their muscle tissue. And other worms that naturally occur in animal's digestive tracts. Unfortunately if a fish ingests a worm egg that is designed for an animal, the worm doesn't always stay in their intestine and can spread to any part of the body. This can show up as a small red spot, or a white growth inside the body.

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The only part of the medication that is likely to be helping is the Methylene blue and that would only be killing off bacteria and fungus on the area. It also kills off filter bacteria so watch your ammonia levels over the next month.