Dropsy Nightmare

[ngl2093]

i had one female get it and flushed her cause she was about dead, now my adult male has it. Sho0uld i just flush him too? I have around 15-20 fry in the tank at different ages I've been putting some salt in there and did treat with medication for 3 times. Now he's showing signs of it. My water quality was going down the drain due to too much gravel so I removed half of it and am hoping for the cycle to finally finish. I've been running the tnak since june. I'm getting distraught now thinking all my fish are going to crap. What should I do. Ride it out or what... Or do I have to restart everything. My guppies set me back some money since they are show quality.

 

[nmonks]

Whoa there... let's back up a little. What species are we talking about here? Guppies?

i had one female get it and flushed her cause she was about dead

No no no. Please don't flush half-dead fish. It's cruel. If you need to kill a fish, then do so. There are various topics here on euthanasia so I won't comment further.

Sho0uld i just flush him too?

No. See above.

I have around 15-20 fry in the tank at different ages I've been putting some salt in there and did treat with medication for 3 times.

There's no reason -- NONE -- for adding salt to a tank of guppies UNLESS you have very soft and acidic water. Even then, there are better options. If you've been using "tonic salt" or "aquarium salt" rather than marine mix, then here's what to do next: toss it in the garbage. Tonic salt has no value or use whatsoever and is sold primarily as a trick to con people out of money.

My water quality was going down the drain due to too much gravel so I removed half of it

There is no real relationshion between water quality and gravel. In theory, you could have a fish corpse under a pile of gravel decaying anaerobically, and that could pump out some hydrogen sulphide, but otherwise, the gravel has nothing to do with poor water quality. Provided you clean the gravel (stir it every few weeks, and siphon off the crud) it should be completely inert.

Water quality "goes down the drain" because [a] the tank is immature and/or you add too many (or too large) fish or the filter is inadequate for the load of fish kept or [c] the tank is grossly over-supplied with food. Pick one, or more if you feel like it. Once you've decided which of these is to blame, we can move on.

I've been running the tnak since june.

This is good, the tank should be stable by now.

What should I do. Ride it out or what... Or do I have to restart everything.

No, restarting wouldn't solve anything. Figure out what you are doing wrong, and stop doing that. How big is the tank? How much water does it contain? What filtration are you using? As a ball-park, a 10 gallon tank can probably hold a half dozen or so adult guppies, and would need a filter with at least a 40 gallons per hour turnover (the turnover should be written on the filter or on its box).

My guppies set me back some money since they are show quality.

Well, let's hope we can save them!

Cheers,

Neale

 

[ngl2093]

OH boy. Guppies. And I already flushed him. When doign water changes I didn't always vacum the gravel. That was a huge mistake I made, and I think that's why my cycle never finished. Due to poor water quality my fish started getting dropsy. I have babies now, but I have no idea what I should do next. Hopefully most make it and none come down with dropsy. I've been using API AQUARIUM SALT. That's no good? I'm going to get water tested tonight and see what pet store says. There was too much gravel and that can cause problems, but I threw half of it out around 3 weeks ago. Too much debris was in the gravel and since i didn't vacum the gravel each water change *big mistake* i now know to syphon the gravel every time not just the water... Sigh I don't know what else to do.

 

[ngl2093]

ammonia is kind of high nitrites are very high. nitrates are so so. i did 50% water change hoping that will help some. im going to test regular tap water from house too see if that has ammonia in it. then I don't know what to do, but i was told not ot start over, there's no point. i just have to let the cycle finish and then get the good water quality and start over with fish? so add no salt now i thought that helps with disease etc. thats what i shouldve did to beginw ith have salt it may have helped? any good advice for me. its a 10 gal hex. I want just fancy guppies. tell me how to do well this next time around. hopefully the babies make it thrrough this if not, i'll get new stock.

 

[nmonks]

OK, so we know what's wrong. You threw away the gravel which destroyed part of the filter in this tank, and in doing so allowed ammonium and nitrite to go up. This in turned killed your fish.

A 10 gallon hexagon tank comes with a built-in undergravel filter, if I am not mistaken. There's an air pump that draws water through the gravel, and in doing so, the water is cleaned. If you remove gravel, you're basically taking away filtration capacity. You should have about 6-8 cm of gravel. Anything less won't do the job.

Now, cleaning an undergravel filter is important. Once a month, use a chopstick or something similar to gently stir the gravel while you siphoning out the water. All the crud will be sucked away, but the bacteria in the gravel will be unharmed. Never, EVER wash the gravel in anything other than aquarium water. So while it is fine to take the gravel out and rinse it in a bucket of water from the aquarium if it gets really dirty, washing the gravel under the tap (faucet) is VERY VERY bad.

Throw away the salt or use it to de-ice the driveway. Serves no purpose in a fish tank.

Dropsy is a symptom not a disease. It is basically incurable on small fish, though sometimes they get better by themselves. Provided water conditions are good, fish as good as never "catch" dropsy so don't worry about it for now.

In the meantime, do not overfeed your fish. You only have 15 babies left, right? They should be fine with minimal filtration since they are so small. Provide tiny amounts of food. If any hits the gravel, you've fed them too much. With baby fish "little but often" is the way to go. For 15 newborn guppies, even half a flake, ground up, should be oceans.

Don't think of adding anything to the aquarium. Not plants, not snails, not catfish, not anything. Just top up the gravel, and then let the thing settle for at least a month. The nitrites and ammonium should drop quite quickly since the tank isn't completely new, but still, don't push your luck.

Cheers,

Neale

 

[nmonks]

OK, so we know what's wrong. You threw away the gravel which destroyed part of the filter in this tank, and in doing so allowed ammonium and nitrite to go up. This in turned killed your fish.

A 10 gallon hexagon tank comes with a built-in undergravel filter, if I am not mistaken. There's an air pump that draws water through the gravel, and in doing so, the water is cleaned. If you remove gravel, you're basically taking away filtration capacity. You should have about 6-8 cm of gravel. Anything less won't do the job.

Now, cleaning an undergravel filter is important. Once a month, use a chopstick or something similar to gently stir the gravel while you siphoning out the water. All the crud will be sucked away, but the bacteria in the gravel will be unharmed. Never, EVER wash the gravel in anything other than aquarium water. So while it is fine to take the gravel out and rinse it in a bucket of water from the aquarium if it gets really dirty, washing the gravel under the tap (faucet) is VERY VERY bad.

Throw away the salt or use it to de-ice the driveway. Serves no purpose in a fish tank.

Dropsy is a symptom not a disease. It is basically incurable on small fish, though sometimes they get better by themselves. Provided water conditions are good, fish as good as never "catch" dropsy so don't worry about it for now.

In the meantime, do not overfeed your fish. You only have 15 babies left, right? They should be fine with minimal filtration since they are so small. Provide tiny amounts of food. If any hits the gravel, you've fed them too much. With baby fish "little but often" is the way to go. For 15 newborn guppies, even half a flake, ground up, should be oceans.

Don't think of adding anything to the aquarium. Not plants, not snails, not catfish, not anything. Just top up the gravel, and then let the thing settle for at least a month. The nitrites and ammonium should drop quite quickly since the tank isn't completely new, but still, don't push your luck.

Cheers,

Neale

 

[Miss Wiggle]

I wouldn't say a 10g hex *nescessarily* come with an under gravel filter. If it does then yes do everything Neale has said, he's quite right and one fo the most knowledgeable people on this site.

However if your not using the undergravel filter and have one in the hood of the tank or an internal it's slightly different. If this is the case then by throwing away some gravel you probably haven't lost a significan't amount of the filtering bacteria, however if it was full of muck and you've stirred up a hell of a lot of waste then your filter is probably struggling to cope with the additional load to deal with and this is why it's cycling.

With a cycling filter all you can do really is ride it out, do small but regular (20% daily) water changes to keep on top of the ammonia and nitrite levels so hopefully it doesn't damage your fish. Invest in your own test kit, I'd recommend the API Fresh Water Master Test Kit, test every single day until you have readings of 0 amonia 0 nitrite and nitrate under 40ppm. As Neale said don't add anything else to the tank.

Once you've got through the cycle you really need to have a think about your maintenance routine. Do weekly water changes of 20-30% and vac your gravel every single time. Once you've got on top of it the routine isn't hard to maintain, just means a bit of hard work the next few weeks to bring everything back to good working order.

good luck

 

[ngl2093]

no under ground filter. just a regular bio wheel filter outside.... I also feel not syphoning the gravel each time did me in. I'm hoping I can get water good before Sunday and then I'm going to a fish show to get some new stock maybe. Cause this stock is most likely done for. goin to store now and getting regular water tested. I may even invest in BioSpir the 20 dollar refrigerated bacteria stuff to get my tank done for by this Sunday when adding new fish. We shall see, I will talk to the guy.

 

[ngl2093]

by the way do have my own test kit so will start testing water every few days and getting readings. what should i really do from here on out? weekly water changes of 20-30% always syphon gravel.... what should i add to my water besides aqua safe water conditioner? No type of salt nothing?

 

[nmonks]

Add nothing. Just clean water. No salt. If you have live plants in there, maybe fertiliser periodically, but otherwise there's nothing useful you can add.

If your tank has no undergravel filter, then you don't technically need gravel at all. Only use enough to cover the glass/plastic at the bottom. Literally a layer one particle deep will do. I happen to find sand easier to care for in very small tanks: dirt can't sink into sand, so it is easier to see and siphon away. Don't use regular sand if you want to do this; use smooth-grade "silver sand" (silica sand) from a garden centre or lime-free aquarium sand (not marine sand). A layer 3-5 mm deep will be fine for the fish you have, giving them something to root about it in, but not being deep enough to cause problems by clogging filters or turning anaerobic.

Don't go buy any more fish. Sit on your hands for a while. Let the tank settle. The baby guppies will be fine, and as they grow, they will add load to the filter gradually, which is an excellent way to mature the filter. The guppies will be big enough to sell in 3 months, and you'll have to move some of them out of the tank anyway. A 10-gallon hexagonal tank won't be big enough for all of them (especially not if they start breeding as well).

Cheers,

Neale

what should i add to my water besides aqua safe water conditioner? No type of salt nothing?

 

[ngl2093]

there aren't many babies and one of the older ones seems half dead is paler than the rest. gonna feed some live food today and see if it helps any. i have maybe about 8 babies max now. Do water changes daily, what? I am going to test water today. I actually like the idea of sand better than gravel.... What kind of sand should i get exactly any links to know what it looks like? I may get that bacteria stuff today it may help speed the process up so my water can be fixed sooner?

also we can agree that there's no need in starting over? its just water quality issue and that can be solved and probably sooner since my tank has been running for months? will the sand affect the bacteria any if i do take all the gravel out and use sand instead? wont the sand get clogged up when syphoning?

UPDATE: my tap water has ammonia. BINGO. aqua safe just isn't enough for this problem, therefore I got Prime and that should do the trick. That is the BIG problem, I'd say? Now I have to treat water etc before hand with prime always. Wish I knew that months ago. I think I'm getting down to solving everything, at least I'd hope so.

 

[nmonks]

I seem vaguely to recall that if tap water (mains supply water) is treated with chloramine, some ammonium test kits will report a false positive. This may be the issue here. I find it hard to imagine there is ammonia in your water supply -- it's pretty toxic. if there is, then a call to the water company is definitely in order. Perhaps a leaky sewer somewhere?

Cheers,

Neale

UPDATE: my tap water has ammonia. BINGO. aqua safe just isn't enough for this problem, therefore I got Prime and that should do the trick.

 

[ngl2093]

no, supposidly all philadelphia water has it. it's not a lot, but it's there..... why would the pet store lie?

 

[nmonks]

no, supposidly all philadelphia water has it. it's not a lot, but it's there..... why would the pet store lie?

All drinking water has ammonia in it? How strange. Can't possibly be healthy. Anyway, once the filter is stablised it should take care of the ammonia in the water.

Fish shops "lie" for two reasons: either they don't know any better (e.g. "glassfish need salt", which they don't) or they're trying to make a sale (e.g. "sure, this plec will grow to the size of your aquarium"). Good, established mom-and-pop places are often trustworthy, especially if you talk with the staff who've been there for years and stick to bred-and-butter species rather than oddballs. Generic pet stores with various animals as well as chain stores (PetCo and the like) tend to be less good because they have staff who're working Saturdays or as temps or whatever. So you end up asking a guy who certainly doesn't keep fish, and only knows what his manager has told him or what he's read on some factsheet.

Cheers,

Neale

 

[ngl2093]

the one guy i deal with used to work at a family operated fish only store. i trust his opinion. well i tested water today. the nitrites were at 0... weird. theres a tiny bit of ammonia still present a little bit, but that should be gone soon. the nitrites disappeared over night. but now supposidly the PH seems to show up wrong... maybe just a slight glitch and will show up normal after a few days. im only going to get a pair or trio anyway, but at least i know the biggest problem. Im assuming after people have their tanks set up for a month PRIME would be good to use regardless. Cause my tank never fully cycled without it.