Do pet stores carry such bad stock that you should quarantine?

[Slaphppy7]

But shelters don't need to mass breed and they're full of pets 24/7.

Shelters/rescues for dogs/cats are full because of human irresponsibility.

 

[Rocky998]

Aloe vera is bad for fish? Guess I need to throw away my water conditioner then, it has that as an ingredient.

Yes. Switch to the average dechlorinator. API makes a general one.
Keep doing large water changes to try to get the aloe Vera out

 

[VioletThePurple]

Yes, because people are leaving their dogs in the streets or turning in their Christmas gifts.
Fish aren't found in drainage systems

But there's still fish that are accidentally breed, left when people move away, and that otherwise aren't wanted anymore. They're obviously limited to the tank, but there's still many ways it could happen.

 

[GaryE]

@VioletThePurple - there are things you can do. You can learn as much as you can, and you can step away from the consumer role. You can produce healthy fish. You will not stand a chance against the large players in the market, but you can work with other hobbyists to breed and share healthy fish - as a kind of alternative economy. You won't make money, but you may find it satisfying.
There are people who focus on one or two species that need help - often fish whose habitat has been destroyed and which are extinct in nature. They create breeding networks, and try to at least keep some fish out there for future generations to see.

Bad breeding comes with mass production, and a lot of dogs have congenital diseases brought on by the high prices they command overwhelming ethical breeding.

Products? That's a lot like what we would find at a naturopathy store - untested and unregulated whatever. The manufacturers are not allowed to use proven meds in many jurisdictions, and they use things that smell good or that humans like to use on themselves to sell product. If they sell stripped down, to the point stuff, consumers scream about chemicals. Add some at best useless aloe vera, or sell fragrant oils, herbal mixes, etc, and they make money. That also happens with other pets.

 

[VioletThePurple]

Yes. Switch to the average dechlorinator. API makes a general one.
Keep doing large water changes to try to get the aloe Vera out

I have another one, not API but my other one doesn't have Aloe Vera. I was going to wait until mine runs out to use it but not if it's bad.

 

[Rocky998]

But there's still fish that are accidentally breed, left when people move away, and that otherwise aren't wanted anymore. They're obviously limited to the tank, but there's still many ways it could happen.

So they turn it in to the local fish stores.
Bur if we JUST relied on that... lol we wouldn't have any fish

 

[Rocky998]

I have another one, not API but my other one doesn't have Aloe Vera. I was going to wait until mine runs out to use it but not if it's bad.

Yah then use that! Is it seachem/prime then?

 

[VioletThePurple]

@VioletThePurple - there are things you can do. You can learn as much as you can, and you can step away from the consumer role. You can produce healthy fish. You will not stand a chance against the large players in the market, but you can work with other hobbyists to breed and share healthy fish - as a kind of alternative economy. You won't make money, but you may find it satisfying.
There are people who focus on one or two species that need help - often fish whose habitat has been destroyed and which are extinct in nature. They create breeding networks and try to at least keep some fish out there for future generations to see.

Bad breeding comes with mass production, and a lot of dogs have congenital diseases brought on by the high prices they command overwhelming ethical breeding.

Products? That's a lot like what we would find at a naturopathy store - untested and unregulated whatever. The manufacturers are not allowed to use proven meds in many jurisdictions, and they use things that smell good or that humans like to use on themselves to sell product. If they sell stripped down, to the point stuff, consumers scream about chemicals. Add some at best useless aloe vera, or sell fragrant oils, herbal mixes, etc., and they make money. That also happens with other pets.

Thanks for that, but I'm not stepping into any big fishkeeping role until I have more experience. I would love to have my own small business or whatever to contribute because of how much stuff like these pisses me off though.

 

[Rocky998]

Thanks for that, but I'm not stepping into any big fishkeeping role until I have more experience. I would love to have my own small business or whatever to contribute because of how much stuff like these pisses me off though.

Yah it does for me as well but sometimes things can't be stopped. It sucks but sometimes you gotta roll with it

 

[VioletThePurple]

So, they turn it in to the local fish stores.
Bur if we JUST relied on that... lol we wouldn't have any fish

If we just relied on that? But that goes back to my argument, shelters just rely on that, and they get overwhelmed consistently. Fish are about as abundant as cats and dogs so I don't see why that wouldn't be possible.

 

[Byron]

If you only have to deal with chlorine or chloramine in your water, the proven best conditioner is API's Tap Water Conditioner. It also detoxifies heavy metals, and that is not a negative because of the chemical process they use which allows plants to still assimilate the metals that are nutrients like iron, copper, zinc, manganese. This is also the most highly concentrated conditioner, so you need less, which is not only less expensive in the long term, but it means less chemicals are getting into the water and thus the fish.

Aloe vera is not safe. I have come to the conclusion that when manufacturers say "x" is safe, they mean if used properly it will not kill the fish. But this does not mean it is safe.

Prime is not a good conditioner to use unless you have ammonia or nitrite at high levels in the source water. Prime detoxifies these but only for 24-36 hours, after which, if still present, they again become toxic. The idea is that the initial detoxification will be effective and by the time it is not effective, the bacteria will be able to deal with things. However, if you do not have ammonia/nitrite issues, there is no reason to use Prime. The chemical(s) used to detoxify metals they will not disclose, but they do say that it detoxifies these metals for 24-36 hours. The plants cannot assimilate these of any nutrients during that time, which is why Seachem say not to use Flourish or similar fertilizers for 36+ hours. I do not like any of this. I have the following warning, I believe this was from another forum, but I offer it for what it is worth.

Yes, when grossly overdosed, Prime can cause harm to your fish. It is a reducing agent (as most water conditioners are); therefore, if it is overdosed and there is nothing "bad" (chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, heavy metals) for it to bind to, it can bind to oxygen in the water. This would result in your fish gasping at the surface of the water, trying to get air. Prime will not affect the pH of the water. As instructed on the label: "For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose." Anything more than that may be able to cause harm to your fish. Prime will remain in the tank for 24 to 48 hours after dosing; after that amount of time, it will dissipate from the tank.​

On the aloe vera, scientific studies have determined that this does harm fish gills over time, or depending upon the dosage. It is not an effective "protection" for fish. Another member referred to this as well. The bottom line in all of this is simple. Do not use any additive unless it is essential, and use the safest product. Fish live in cle3an water, not chemical soups which many aquarists create unknowingly--I know, I went down that road and lost fish as a result. When one understands the physiology of a fish, it is easy to see why additives, whatever they are, usually carry significant risks.

 

[VioletThePurple]

If you only have to deal with chlorine or chloramine in your water, the proven best conditioner is API's Tap Water Conditioner. It also detoxifies heavy metals, and that is not a negative because of the chemical process they use which allows plants to still assimilate the metals that are nutrients like iron, copper, zinc, manganese. This is also the most highly concentrated conditioner, so you need less, which is not only less expensive in the long term, but it means less chemicals are getting into the water and thus the fish.

Aloe vera is not safe. I have come to the conclusion that when manufacturers say "x" is safe, they mean if used properly it will not kill the fish. But this does not mean it is safe.

Prime is not a good conditioner to use unless you have ammonia or nitrite at high levels in the source water. Prime detoxifies these but only for 24-36 hours, after which, if still present, they again become toxic. The idea is that the initial detoxification will be effective and by the time it is not effective, the bacteria will be able to deal with things. However, if you do not have ammonia/nitrite issues, there is no reason to use Prime. The chemical(s) used to detoxify metals they will not disclose, but they do say that it detoxifies these metals for 24-36 hours. The plants cannot assimilate these of any nutrients during that time, which is why Seachem say not to use Flourish or similar fertilizers for 36+ hours. I do not like any of this. I have the following warning, I believe this was from another forum, but I offer it for what it is worth.

Yes, when grossly overdosed, Prime can cause harm to your fish. It is a reducing agent (as most water conditioners are); therefore, if it is overdosed and there is nothing "bad" (chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, heavy metals) for it to bind to, it can bind to oxygen in the water. This would result in your fish gasping at the surface of the water, trying to get air. Prime will not affect the pH of the water. As instructed on the label: "For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose." Anything more than that may be able to cause harm to your fish. Prime will remain in the tank for 24 to 48 hours after dosing; after that amount of time, it will dissipate from the tank.​

On the aloe vera, scientific studies have determined that this does harm fish gills over time or depending upon the dosage. It is not an effective "protection" for fish. Another member referred to this as well. The bottom line in all of this is simple. Do not use any additive unless it is essential and use the safest product. Fish live in clean water, not chemical soups which many aquarists create unknowingly--I know, I went down that road and lost fish as a result. When one understands the physiology of a fish, it is easy to see why additives, whatever they are, usually carry significant risks.

I just have to use something to detoxify the tap water. Yikes. I have a different water conditioner that doesn't have aloe vera. It's not the API brand, but it's certainly better than the stuff I was using before.

 

[Rocky998]

If we just relied on that? But that goes back to my argument, shelters just rely on that, and they get overwhelmed consistently. Fish are about as abundant as cats and dogs so I don't see why that wouldn't be possible.

Not really... And we would not have a wide variety of fish either...
Peacock gudgeons aren't something you find at your friends house
Neither are a good selection of cichlids or rainbow fish.
Bichirs as well... There are so many species hard to get that wouldn't be at a "fish shelter"... Also I doubt they would be cared for properly

 

[Byron]

In response to the initial post, we must not forget that fish are very different from dogs or any mammal, and even from reptiles and amphibians. There are very few veterinarians that will treat fish, so their care is solely the responsibility of the owner, And not many of us are trained biologists, so diagnosing disease is very difficult. Many of these diseases are internal with no symptoms whatsoever until the fish just dies. Twice I have introduced one of these internal protozoan and infected my fish; I learned to quarantine after the first loss, but the second got through because I did not quarantine long enough. We must also remember that some times there will be fish with no symptoms but still carrying "x" disease which may pass to the tank fish and they succumb, but the carriers remain OK. Only a qualified biologist could do a necropsy to determine the specific pathogen, but by then all the fish would be dead anyway. Quarantine for several weeks, and hopefully you won't have issues.

Wild caught fish are healthier than commercially raised fish. It would be much better if all the fish we acquire were wild caught. Governments in SA have laws protecting the fish, and organizations exist to ensure the fish exported are legal. It provides income for the indigenous people who otherwise would have to turn to occupations like farming, which destroys the habitats. [Before someone jumps in, I realize "fancy" breeds like livebearers are a totally different story, I am more concerned here with the tetras and rasboras and cories, etc, etc.]

It is no fluke that both of my diseases came in on commercially raised fish acquired from Petland, a pet store chain. I lost a lot of the fish I purchased there, until I realized what was happening and stopped. Earlier this year, I bought fish from a Mr Pets store, and they all died about 8 weeks later. I do not consider these to be random incidents, they are too common. And it is too much of a coincidence that in all my 30 years of keeping fish, the only deaths were always the commercial fish. I acquired many fish from the reliable independent stores, guaranteed wild caught, and I cannot honestly recall any problems. In those days I never quarantined either.

 

[VioletThePurple]

Not really... And we would not have a wide variety of fish either...
Peacock gudgeons aren't something you find at your friend's house
Neither are a good selection of cichlids or rainbow fish.
Bichirs as well... There are so many species hard to get that wouldn't be at a "fish shelter"... Also, I doubt they would be cared for properly

You doubt they would be cared for properly? The whole point of rescue is to rehome with better owners with adoption requirements. Those fish would go home to better owners than stores that allow impulsive buying. With the rarer fish thing, that's like saying we should keep puppy mills around because purebred dogs are harder to find at shelters.