Discussion of Barbs classification

[Magnum Man]

can I get a definition??? Cyprinidae, are these barbs???
if so, is a Crossocheilus reticulatus actually a barb??? these are listed at the seller I buy from as "other cyprinidae"
just curious??? mine have not got the yellow colored fins yet, so I would likely enter a different barb, anyway... just curious

 

[CassCats]

can I get a definition??? Cyprinidae, are these barbs???
if so, is a Crossocheilus reticulatus actually a barb??? these are listed at the seller I buy from as "other cyprinidae"
just curious??? mine have not got the yellow colored fins yet, so I would likely enter a different barb, anyway...

Cyprinidae extends well beyond just barbs. Rasboras, danios, minnows, carp, boraras, barbs, red tailed/rainbow sharks, goldfish, koi, garra, sae... these are all cyprinidae, but not barbs.

However, Crossocheilus are occasionally called fringe barbs and are technically more like barbs than the others.

If my opinion matters here, I think it should count in this case

 

[connorlindeman]

Good question Magnum Man.

My understanding based off some research this morning:

Feature	Crossocheilus (Algae Eaters)	Barbs (Puntius, Pethia, etc.)
Body Shape	Slender, elongated for fast-flowing waters	Deeper, more rounded body shape
Mouth Position	Downward-facing (inferior), adapted for scraping algae	Terminal (forward-facing), suited for general feeding
Diet	Primarily herbivorous, algae and biofilm grazers	Omnivorous, eating insects, plants, and prepared foods
Behavior	Active but peaceful, best in groups	Active, often semi-aggressive, fin-nipping possible
Preferred Habitat	Fast-moving, well-oxygenated waters with rocks and driftwood	Varies—some prefer still or slow-moving waters

Historically some Crossocheilus(snout barb, fringe barb) were grouped with Barbs due to their body shape.
Crossocheilus reticulatus has almost no characteristics that would group it with Barbs.

For the reasons cited above, we will not allow Crossocheilus reticulatus to be entered. If any of you disagree, please let me know.

 

[GaryE]

Barbs is a meaningless category for the hobby. Technically, it is a Cyprinid with barbels. But the definition can expand out.

I had to wrestle with this when I co-wrote a (now out of print) book on Barbs. In the end, we (the co-authors, the series editor and the Ichthyologist peer editor) went for the broadest definition, and included Rasbora, Bororas and Danios. When you're trying to analyze groups recognized by hobbyists, they don't always fall neatly into natural groups. It's the "but rainbow sharks aren't sharks" effect.

However we group them, they're wonderful fish. Bring them on here!

 

[Magnum Man]

I'm not disputing anyone, again, just curious... @GaryE ... would Crossocheilus reticulatus, have been classed as a barb, back when your book was in print??? I know many fish are getting reclassified with modern technology, just curious how big the barb family was originally???

also for contest leaders... I'm curious if Cory's are ever a FOTM, and with the reclassification, are fish originally classed as Cory's allowed... or is the forum, avoiding fish going through, or having recently gone through reclassification???

 

[GaryE]

@Magnum Man - not to derail the contest thread, but I would have considered Crossocheilus etc as barbs. It's a hobby creation, barbs. It's one of those things we use to figure out what we're buying and keeping, rather than something directly based on the research. For Corys, the new names don't change the way we call them in the hobby. Species by species, maybe, but if we say Corys (I would love to see that FOTM) we have an understanding.
Not all livebearers are related closely, and not all bear live the same way. The lines between livebearing Poecilia and egg laying killies have been debated a few times. Cichlids can be used for just one lake, Malawi, in a huge world full of those fish, or can apply to regions. They can be radically different, but related beasts. Our hobby is full of categories of convenience.

A zebra Danio is a barb. An Enteromius from Africa is one too, as is a Dawkinsia from Asia.

 

[connorlindeman]

I have moved these posts regarding barb classification to their own thread to allow for continued discussion.

April 2025 Fish of the Month will now feature Corydoras.

 

[GaryE]

I just looked at some photos. They are Cyprinids and they do have barbels.... that would do for me.

 

[connorlindeman]

If you all agree that Crossocheilus reticulatus should be allowed, I'm fine with that.

 

[Magnum Man]

sorry, "fringe" fish... I already have an entry, for this month, but maybe when barbs come back around, I'll have some that are mature.. they are stunning in their own right, when mature...

 

[CassCats]

Personally I'd class them in with barbs.

Fishbase, which is a scientifically backed source, does also class them as barbs as well.

 

[GaryE]

I had the privilege of traveling in Gabon with an African Ichthyologist whose field of study is barbs. There were so many that we found, including new to science species. The diversity was stunning.
Most were not very pretty, silvery torpedo shaped fish, but some were really great aquarium possibilities. They would be for larger tanks in most cases, but I did bring back one micro-species. I thought it was a jae barb, Enteromius jae, but it is something different. I've kept jae from Cameroon, one of the best aquarium barbs out there, and this Gabonese version is a different but related fish.

On our first day on the road, we stayed at a hotel across the street from a large river. When the sun came up I went down to take a look. There were cool Synodontis cats all along an algae covered cement wall (we were in a small city) but the barbs... there were some about 3-4 inches long with large silver scales and beautifully coloured dorsal and caudal fins. The barb guy said they grew too large for our interests. They were already too big to bring back.

Every stream or river we stopped at seemed to have different, interesting barbs (and tetras, and killies, and Mormyrids, and Cichlids). We'd bring them to the Ichthyologist, and watch his eyes light up when it was an unfamiliar one. By the end of the trip, we'd found quite a few of those. But the relevant thing for this thread is that as we caught them, we knew they were barbs. Barbs are just recognizably barbs. I don't know why, but our brains just slot them in immediately.

 

[Magnum Man]

I'm not disputing the contest moderators, as far as I'm concerned they can include or exclude any fish they choose prior to the start of the contest... but specific fish contests seem to becoming more challenging, using a common name like "barb" seems to be more open to interpretation...
for example this fish is listed as a Rasbora here... (again, I'm not disputing this fish in the contest, in fact I'm likely to vote for it, as it's less common than some of the others )

https://www.dansfish.com/product.detail/5074/Rummynose-Rasbora-(Sawbwa-resplendens)

 

[MattW]

I'm nowhere near clued up on species classification. But I do refer to Sawbwa as a Rasbora more often than a barb when discussing them. I thought I'd submit it in the FOTM just to throw a spanner in the works

 

[connorlindeman]

Would you guys classify long finned danios as barbs? We've got one entered in the contest.