Dirty gravel contributing to fin rot??

[fishtime!]

My female koi betta's fins have been deteriorating since October, and now they look so bad I'm very concerned. I was told to increase water changes to twice a week and treat the water with vita chem as well as start feeding her betta crumbles in addition to the bugbites I was giving her and soak the food in vitachem before hand. She started getting a bit better, then I had to leave town for the holidays and she got worse. When I got back I resumed and she got a little bit better. Now I've had a few weeks where I've been able to tend to her one week and then not as much the next and she looks so bad. She has never looked underfed - I leave her with an automatic feeder and she has tons of baby shrimp to eat. So the big variable is the water changes. But at worst she is still getting a 50-75% water change every week - 1.5 weeks. I do wipe down the sides of the tank, but I'm wondering if this buildup at the bottom is concerning (picture below). This is NOT in the gravel - I have vacuumed to the bottom in these sections, this is algae on the sides of the tank. So my question is do I have to vacuum all the substrate out of this area and then scrub it off?

I have been considering adding salt because this is so severe but I've never done it before and a lot of stuff online says fin issues should be resolved with clean water. I have seachem polyguard and have been considering api fin and body cure but have not done so because @Colin_T has made posts saying not to unless you know whats wrong. Her behavior is great - always swimming around and exploring the tank, always a good appetite and chases around the pipette i feed her from. I never see here flaring the sides or glass surfing or any other signs of stress. I'm attaching pictures of what she looked like in October, what she looks like now, and what the dirty substrate looks like. I have also turned my aquarium lights off in case that was stressing her out, she gets plenty of light from a nearby window. I also stopped adding almond leaves - I was doing it every water change and I know they are supposed to be good for her but because I was doing so many water changes I was adding 2 each time and I saw one person saying that a lot of decaying almond leaves could harbor fungal growth (even though my shrimps make quick work of the decaying leaves). Should I turn the temperature down to 75 to slow bacterial growth?

Tank info:
Size: 20 gallon long
tank parameters: nitrite 0 ammonia 0 nitrate 5-10 pH 7.5
Stuff in tank: driftwood, dragon rocks, live plants, bladder snails, lots of blue velvet shrimps
filter: 20 g HOB with old carbon filter
temp: 78 F
water changes: bi weekly + gravel vacuum(but read post)
water treatment: seachem prime and vitachem
feeding: twice a day, betta crumbles + fluval bug bites soaked in vitachem

 

[GaryE]

The bottom doesn't look too bad, but that wasting away of the fins, her eyes and the discolouration do look to be a problem. My unscientific guess, from just seeing a photo and reading your description, is a bacterial disease. That doesn't look like a fungus based problem.

I had to look up vitachem, but as a nutritional supplement, I doubt it'll do much. The person trying to help you is focused on nutrition, but I don't agree that's what's going on here.

I don't think the issue is an attack from outside the fish, as in a fungus or dirty water problem. You're changing water and the substrate looks fine. It's an internal enemy, or multiple enemies, at work. It's only possible to guess at what is a primary infection and what's secondary.

I'm sounding useless, but I'm not sure anyone can be useful. With extraordinary care, you seem to have held a pathogen at bay. When you aren't there, it gains ground. So it isn't being cured - just managed.

I have no access to over the counter antibiotics, so I've never had to develop any expertise to say whether it's likely gram negative or positive. I agree it's unwise and not ethical to shotgun random antibiotics at poorly defined infections, but if any experienced Betta treatment people read this far - input would help.

 

[Back in the fold]

I’m gradually moving to no substrate at all in my aquariums and it’s a real eye opener to see what accumulates . That detritus looks capable of promoting fin rot or anything .

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Fin rot is usually a bacteria infection at work. I am a believer in using antibiotics for treating an infection. However, they need to be used properly.

1. One must know which antibiotic to use. Should it be one for use against gram negative or gram positive bacteria? This requires that one know what the morcoorgaisn they are fighting is. And then there are the broad spectrum antibiotics we might choose when uncertain.
2. Antibiotic treatments involved both dosing and duration. Use the wrong dosing or do not dose for the recommended time and failure becomes more likely.
3. Treating and not succeeding brcause the treatment wasn't completed can increase the resistance of the organism to the antibiotic.
4. Sometimes, more than a single round of treatment may be needed. My normal practice in such a case is often to increase the dosage somewhat for a second round. This is a slight increase, maybe I normally stay under a 25% increase, However, some meds just need similar second dose. So I am careful about deciding to increase the dosage.
5. Some treatments are best when fed. Other must be added to the water. Feeding will kill what is in a fish but when the bacteria are also [resent in the water they need to be killed as well.

It appears to me that the reason for the failure to cure the fish has been due to the inconsistent treatment. Starting and stopping as you describe would appear the be the problem. The other thing is you may need to does the water as noted in #5 above.

You live in the states and almost any medication we might need of our fish is available. Last month the speaker at my fish club spaoke on diagnosing and treating the most common forms of illness and parasites we typically enounter in out tanks. I did not take notes and do not remember offhand which form of antibiotic works best for fin rot. However, this is what the Google AI says: "Fin rot in fish is typically caused by gram-negative bacteria."

And this is what the AI said when I asked what antibotic to use for fin rot. "For treating gram-negative bacterial infections in fish, consider using antibiotics like kanamycin, nitrofurans (furazone, nifurpirinol), or tetracycline, especially oxytetracycline, which has a broad spectrum of activity."

 

[fishtime!]

The bottom doesn't look too bad, but that wasting away of the fins, her eyes and the discolouration do look to be a problem. My unscientific guess, from just seeing a photo and reading your description, is a bacterial disease. That doesn't look like a fungus based problem.

I had to look up vitachem, but as a nutritional supplement, I doubt it'll do much. The person trying to help you is focused on nutrition, but I don't agree that's what's going on here.

I don't think the issue is an attack from outside the fish, as in a fungus or dirty water problem. You're changing water and the substrate looks fine. It's an internal enemy, or multiple enemies, at work. It's only possible to guess at what is a primary infection and what's secondary.

I'm sounding useless, but I'm not sure anyone can be useful. With extraordinary care, you seem to have held a pathogen at bay. When you aren't there, it gains ground. So it isn't being cured - just managed.

I have no access to over the counter antibiotics, so I've never had to develop any expertise to say whether it's likely gram negative or positive. I agree it's unwise and not ethical to shotgun random antibiotics at poorly defined infections, but if any experienced Betta treatment people read this far - input would help.

These are helpful thoughts, thank you. What looks wrong about her eyes to you? I think I'm going to dose with API fin and body cure.

 

[fishtime!]

Fin rot is usually a bacteria infection at work. I am a believer in using antibiotics for treating an infection. However, they need to be used properly.

1. One must know which antibiotic to use. Should it be one for use against gram negative or gram positive bacteria? This requires that one know what the morcoorgaisn they are fighting is. And then there are the broad spectrum antibiotics we might choose when uncertain.
2. Antibiotic treatments involved both dosing and duration. Use the wrong dosing or do not dose for the recommended time and failure becomes more likely.
3. Treating and not succeeding brcause the treatment wasn't completed can increase the resistance of the organism to the antibiotic.
4. Sometimes, more than a single round of treatment may be needed. My normal practice in such a case is often to increase the dosage somewhat for a second round. This is a slight increase, maybe I normally stay under a 25% increase, However, some meds just need similar second dose. So I am careful about deciding to increase the dosage.
5. Some treatments are best when fed. Other must be added to the water. Feeding will kill what is in a fish but when the bacteria are also [resent in the water they need to be killed as well.

It appears to me that the reason for the failure to cure the fish has been due to the inconsistent treatment. Starting and stopping as you describe would appear the be the problem. The other thing is you may need to does the water as noted in #5 above.

You live in the states and almost any medication we might need of our fish is available. Last month the speaker at my fish club spaoke on diagnosing and treating the most common forms of illness and parasites we typically enounter in out tanks. I did not take notes and do not remember offhand which form of antibiotic works best for fin rot. However, this is what the Google AI says: "Fin rot in fish is typically caused by gram-negative bacteria."

And this is what the AI said when I asked what antibotic to use for fin rot. "For treating gram-negative bacterial infections in fish, consider using antibiotics like kanamycin, nitrofurans (furazone, nifurpirinol), or tetracycline, especially oxytetracycline, which has a broad spectrum of activity."

Thanks! I think I'm going to dose with API fin and body cure - it has antibiotic that treats gram negative bacteria. Even with twice a week water changes she wasnt improving much and I need her to be able to exist without round-the-clock care.

 

[fishtime!]

I’m gradually moving to no substrate at all in my aquariums and it’s a real eye opener to see what accumulates . That detritus looks capable of promoting fin rot or anything .

Yah I just cleaned it out so it looks brand new again - i had previously been worried about gravel vacuuming to the bottom of the tank because i didn't want to disrupt good bacteria or bring up bad stuff but I think that was the wrong call. Going to be much more thorough in the future