Dead & Dying Fish Nightmare

[kazc31]

Know a few degrees makes no difference just a thought if a 50% water change with cold water effect them somewhat as have always been told to match temps!!

 

[Ch4rlie]

Maybe adding the water too fast may be a contributing factor.

 

[rms]

The water changes were relatively cool, but not cold. I always siphon the new water into the tank, partly to allow it to warm as it goes in and partly so as not to disturb the substrate and alarm the fish too much.
 
I lost three more last night and decided the smaller tank would hold up to the number of fish left. It has an over sized filter loaded with good bacteria and I did 3 80% water changes last night and one this morning. Will carry on with changes morning, evening and night with that, more if needs be.
 
As for the bigger tank. I wish I'd thought to take a sample to my LFS, but I've emptied and cleaned it now. It's refilled, replanted and I'm off to the LFS for a new filter and will cycle it.
 
The remaining fish seem to be doing well now. The guppies are looking quite playful and the neons are skimming around the substrate in a small shoal, looking very alert. They're all eating again. Tested the water before the water change this morning and ammonia and nitrite were very low. Looks like the filter is doing a good job.
 
Does this sound like a good plan?

 

[rms]

Well, thought you might like to know, no further casualties. Bit of a wipe out though, 16 left from 27...

Ammonia and nitrite are barely present with 3 80% water changes per day. I'm guessing the filter from the bigger tank has helped out there. I've ordered a new filter arriving today or tomorrow and considering a rapid tank cycle. Does anyone know if this is worth doing in my situation? I believe the method is to take a small amount if water from the tank, clean the filter in it and them tip the dirty water into the new tank. Seems to make sense and apparently the tank cycles in days. Sounds too good to be true.

 

[Ninjouzata]

Well, thought you might like to know, no further casualties. Bit of a wipe out though, 16 left from 27...

Ammonia and nitrite are barely present with 3 80% water changes per day. I'm guessing the filter from the bigger tank has helped out there. I've ordered a new filter arriving today or tomorrow and considering a rapid tank cycle. Does anyone know if this is worth doing in my situation? I believe the method is to take a small amount if water from the tank, clean the filter in it and them tip the dirty water into the new tank. Seems to make sense and apparently the tank cycles in days. Sounds too good to be true.

I don't think I'm quite getting what you mean, but from the way I'm understanding it you're wanting to use the tank water to cycle the filter? The tank water holds virtually no bacteria, they live on surfaces and mainly in the filter media.

 

[rms]

I was going to clean the filter in some of the tank water and then pour it in the other tank. That way the new filter will pick up the bacteria squeezed out of the filter media. I'm only going on what I've read, but it seems to make sense and hoping someone might have tried it before to give advice on how things roll after that.

 

[Sophie]

I was going to clean the filter in some of the tank water and then pour it in the other tank. That way the new filter will pick up the bacteria squeezed out of the filter media. I'm only going on what I've read, but it seems to make sense and hoping someone might have tried it before to give advice on how things roll after that.

 
I don't think you can squeeze the bacteria off the sponges.. 

 

[rms]

With respect I have to disagree. If you can kill the bacteria by cleaning your filter sponge in tap water then it must be there, therefor you must be able to remove it. I did think about this when cleaning my filter the very first time. All that brown, smelly cloud coming out. The bacteria must be present. I've even been warned on this forum not to clean to heavily because it will remove the bacteria. That bacteria will be in the water you cleaned the filter in and so that water can be sucked up by a new filter, speeding up the cycling process by colonising it very quickly with healthy bacteria.
 
Here is the video I watched confirming what I thought might work. I'm just not sure how to continue the cycle this way as the guy explaining is quite vague towards the end.
 

 
 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Its hard to kill your bacteria by rinsing it in tap water.
 
Squeezing sponges will help a bit. Its better than doing nothing. Most of the brown sludge is "dirt" normally removed from a tank.
 
Ignore that vid, the guy doesn't know what he is talking about. What one moves is not just bacteria, one moves bits of the biofilm containing the bacteria. The bacteria are not free floating/swimming in the water. Squeeze out the sponges, not the filter pads designed to trap solid wastes, that is not where the bacteria live. better is to slice a sponge lengthwise so it still fits the current filter, then tak one piece and put it into the new filter.
 
There will not normally be enough bacteria to cycle fully a new similar size tank. In fishless you dose ammonia, with fish in with the proper light load, it can be enough to minimize or eliminate most of the ammonia and nitrite spike so no water changes will be needed.
 
I may have missed it but I saw no report of any test readings for this tank.

 

[Sophie]

The bacteria are not free floating/swimming in the water. 

 
Was the implication I was trying to make and couldn't find the words, hah.
They cannot 'jump' off and reattach to something different can they, surely? TTA?

 

[rms]

No not jumping, but there is much talk about cleaning sponges gently so I assumed that meant the bacteria can be dislodged. I just had this image of them clinging on some how. As I'm cycling the tank anyway I don't see the harm in trying it. I'll let you know what the nitrate levels are after 24hrs. If there's nothing promising I'll try your suggestion TTA by actually using some of the sponge in the new filter.

 

[Meeresstille]

rms, about 2 years ago I've squeezed a mature sponge filter in front of the filter intake tube to help seed new filter media for a new tank and it worked for me. The squeezed sponge came from a tank with 7 fish, and a snail and the new filter was to take care of 6 fish in a tank 3 times as big. I did not even see any ammonia or nitrite spike in that tank, kind of like an instant cycle! The fish were Rummynose Tetras, they are sensitive fish and their noses stayed bright red, which is a sign that they were feeling fine!

 

[PrincessKiara]

Wait, your tank is 60L? I've never kept angels, but don't they need at least 200L? I've read they can grow to 10cm...and will eat neons...although I've also been told there is also a small chance they might leave the neons alone.
Anyway, I'm glad your problem is fixed!
You can try adding lots of hornwort to the new tank. Fixed my tank when I was moving and couldn't do w/c's for several months. My fish went from dying to totally OK

 

[rms]

rms, about 2 years ago I've squeezed a mature sponge filter in front of the filter intake tube to help seed new filter media for a new tank and it worked for me. The squeezed sponge came from a tank with 7 fish, and a snail and the new filter was to take care of 6 fish in a tank 3 times as big. I did not even see any ammonia or nitrite spike in that tank, kind of like an instant cycle! The fish were Rummynose Tetras, they are sensitive fish and their noses stayed bright red, which is a sign that they were feeling fine!

 
Glad it worked for you My results have been some what different, but still there has been some effect. I tested for nitrate after 24 hrs to see if the cycle had started it's final process. The nitrate result was 5. I tested ammonia and nitrite and they came up <.25 and 0.1 respectively, so very low. I wasn't sure what to do at this point so I gave the filter another squeeze into the water and waited 48hrs. Tested again and ammonia <.25, nitrite 1 and nitrate 50. I guessed this was a good sign and did a 50% water change and then gave the filter a good squeeze again. 24 hrs later ammonia <.25, nitrite 0 and nitrate 10 or 25. At this point I transferred 6 neons to the tank (60l). Another 24hrs and ammonia <.25, nitrite 0.25. Quite annoying as I thought the tank had cycled. Nitrate was 25. Did a 75% water change and have been doing this since every few days.
 
The strange thing about this all is the ammonia has never been visible. Every test showing no colouration of the water. I left the water change for a week, testing regularly, but it's not visible. The nitrate went up to 50 again though so there is definitely a cycle happening. I am quite confused.
 
I shut down the very small tank in the end. I have a 300l that I was waiting until I know what I'm doing before firing up. I moved the remaining 5 neons into it and the 5 guppies. Before I did this I cleaned everything from the small tank in it (the water was dechlorinated), including the filter and left the filter sponge floating around in it. Same thing has happened that ammonia is not detectable, but nitrite and nitrate are. Nitrate especially high, nitrite low. The reason I did this is I can't manage three changes per day that I was doing in the very small tank to keep the fish comfortable. I guessed that the 300l would give me days rather than hours before water changes needed.
 
It feels like I have no point of reference for this as the normal cycling process is not relevant. There has been some effect of using media from a cycled tank, but it hasn't really helped as I was doing all this in a mad panic because my fish were literally dropping like flies. Now I have two tanks running with fish in them that haven't cycled. The 300 is quite easy on water changes as it is vast for such a small amount of fish. Nitrate was present from the start so using the old media does work. Just not sure how to finish the cycle. In that tank and the 60...... Aaaahhhhgg!! 
 
 

Wait, your tank is 60L? I've never kept angels, but don't they need at least 200L? I've read they can grow to 10cm...and will eat neons...although I've also been told there is also a small chance they might leave the neons alone.
Anyway, I'm glad your problem is fixed!
You can try adding lots of hornwort to the new tank. Fixed my tank when I was moving and couldn't do w/c's for several months. My fish went from dying to totally OK

 
My angels were part of the wipe out  They were doing really well, as was everything for a while. They were growing and looking great. They never showed any interest in the neons and I was told their mouths would never get big enough to eat one anyway. I've heard this several times, but also heard they eat them as well. Maybe it depends on the fish individually? Thanks for the hornwort tip. Shall look into that and other things.
 
In the mean time if anyone has some sound advice to get me out of this enormous pit I seem to have dug myself into I'd be happy to follow it to the letter. I was thinking maybe put all the fish in the 300 and then cycle the small tank and put them in slowly.