Cycling New Tank With Old Tank?

[wilchil64]

Hi,
I'm new here and I filled my new tank on Saturday, it's 125 litres. I added the Nutrafin Aqua plus and Cycle that came with the kit and also as advised a small pinch of fish food to start the bacteria (that's what it said in the instructions). The Aqua plus and Cycle are liquids in a small bottle.

My question is my daughter has a 21 litre tank with two small goldfishes in it in her room, the tank has been up and running since July and the fish seem perfectly happy in it. Can I add a little of their water to the tropical fish tank we've just set up to get the bacteria started or is there a reason why goldfish water is different to tropical fish water (other than temperature, obviously). Their tank has a filter too.

Thanks for your help.

 

[waterdrop]

Oh my, have you ever lucked into the right place!

The members of this forum will no doubt have you fixed up on this topic in no time, its one of their favorites, assuming you've got the time to listen and interact.

Tank water itself is not the "bacteria container of interest" here. Its the media inside the filter (yes, that mucky looking stuff!!) that is the favorite hangout of the little bacteria fellows that we want. So yes indeed, your goldfish filter is of great value to you for what you want to do. And no, there should be no problem using mature media from a goldfish filter, even though you are going to use it to "cycle" a tropical fish filter. In fact, you could have saved some money perhaps, because the little bottle of cycle is probably worthless, compared to the vibrant, alive bacteria in your goldfish filter!

The basics of the "mature media move" (lets call it MMM ) are to never move more than 1/3 (one third) of the filter media in the older, existing tank filter. The type of media will determine how this is actually done. If you have a tray of loose stuff like pebbles or ceramic rings or "bioballs", its pretty obvious to just take out about a third of them. With the (more common) situation of having a sponge, its a little less obvious! Sponges can be cut rather nicely with scissors (well, you have to clean the scissors afterwards ) and one third of the sponge moved and worked into the media hold of the new filter. The trick though is to not lose the debris catching (known technically as the "mechanical media function") ability of either the old filter or the new filter. A sponge often needs to be reasonably tight in its space but not crushed. Either of these, not being tight or being too crushed would result in impaired mechanical filtration function (ie. it won't catch the crap as it flows by ) Anyway, the "MMM" is going to be the way to introduce the beneficial bacteria you need into the new tank.

Now hang on a bit, because you've possibly got some other info to absorb here. This business of MMM is really only a way of "seeding" your new filter with the right type of bacteria. Its a way to jumpstart and speed up the process of making the filter ready for fish. You see, the new filter, contrary to what your LFS may tell you, is really just a kit with a bunch of raw hardware parts and normally its really only ready for fish after an experienced fishkeeper and knowledgeably done the right things to it for about a month (yes, I really said that!) Now for you, it might be only a couple of weeks if you're lucky and the mature media move works out properly, which it should.

The "process" that you are short-cutting on, is called "Fishless Cycling" and its one of the core things this forum is about. No doubt other members will be along shortly (or will already have posted while I'm doing my long-winded typing here ) and will give you some links to click on so you can learn about this process. About now you may be complaining that you only wanted to help your daughter out and didn't want to learn a bunch of sciency hobby procedures, but trust me, its easy, its fascinating.... its even fun, so go for it and read all about the nitrogen cycle and fishless cycling -- you'll be glad you did.

Good luck on all the things you'll be doing. Just ask right here and all of them should get covered and you'll have your new tank up and going and healthy,

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Amunet]

As waterdrop has already said, the water isn't what you need. The filter media in the old tank is though. I would first go out and buy some new media and then place one of the new ones in to the old filter if there is room for it (along with the old stuff).
Wait about a week, then cut off a small portion of the old media for your new tank.
Doing this though, you're either going to have to add fish right away so the bacteria on the old media doesn't die, or feed it with an ammonia source until you do get fish.


Also, I know you didn't ask for info on ths, but definitely NOT a good idea to have goldfish in such a small tank. 20liters is about wht.. 5 gallons? The basic rule for goldfish is the first one needs 20gals, every one after that needs 10gallons. So your 2 goldfish should be in a 30gallon tank w/ over filtration.
I'm sure some of the people more familiar with goldfish will be able to give you more info on them.

 

[wilchil64]

Tank water itself is not the "bacteria container of interest" here. Its the media inside the filter (yes, that mucky looking stuff!!) that is the favorite hangout of the little bacteria fellows that we want. So yes indeed, your goldfish filter is of great value to you for what you want to do. And no, there should be no problem using mature media from a goldfish filter, even though you are going to use it to "cycle" a tropical fish filter. In fact, you could have saved some money perhaps, because the little bottle of cycle is probably worthless, compared to the vibrant, alive bacteria in your goldfish filter!

Thanks very very much for the info. I'll take out the filter and have a look, I think it's got foam in it.

Pity the guys in the shop don't know what they're talking about when us clueless individuals go to buy a tank for our goldfish! I was sold the tank because I said I wanted two goldfish, not just one - and they said there would be plenty of space for two goldfish and possibly a couple of minnows too! I have to say the goldfish are only about 2 cms long so hope they will be ok for now. a bigger tank in my daughter's room is really not possible and they are her fish, so I'm going to leave them for now as they seem fine and keep an eye on them.

Wish I'd found this forum before. But at least our goldfish are a lot better of than some of the ones her friends have (in a plastic bowl in tap water with no filter at all!!!)

I'm sure I'll be back with lots of questions soon, but again thanks for the info.

 

[OldMan47]

Some very small goldfish will be fine in a 5 gallon, 20 litre, tank. They will soon get to be 2 inches long and at that point you will need to upgrade to a larger tank. I would be very surprised if you don't need to change things by the year's end. In the meantime, you will do fine getting a cycle established with the advice you have already been given. That 125 litre tank would be just about right for bringing those 2 goldfish up to near their adult size as long as you didn't put anything else in with them. I know it's not what you planned but it is what would work for a longer time.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Some very small goldfish will be fine in a 5 gallon, 20 litre, tank. They will soon get to be 2 inches long and at that point you will need to upgrade to a larger tank. I would be very surprised if you don't need to change things by the year's end. In the meantime, you will do fine getting a cycle established with the advice you have already been given. That 125 litre tank would be just about right for bringing those 2 goldfish up to near their adult size as long as you didn't put anything else in with them. I know it's not what you planned but it is what would work for a longer time.

i agree with the above, the tricky bit with growing fish on in a small tank is knowing when to move them really.

theres a common myth that fish only grow to the size of the tank that they are in, this makes it seem like it's OK to put fish in whatever size tank you like and they'll just stop growing when they run out of space. Now while it's true that they stop growing the reality is far worse that the saying makes out. This process is called stunting. Have you heard of the ancient chinese custom where they bound the ladies feet to keep them small, think of it more like that than like just stopping growing when you're comfortable. The fish will firstly become very distressed and will eventually die as a consequence of your actions.

the difficulty comes in moving them before the damage is done, they will stop growing and become stunted before they show any signs of distress by then it's too late and even if you do move them it's not going to un-do the health problems that you have caused.

sorry if that sounds really preacy but unfortunately goldfish are one of the most mis treated animals on the planet, people somehow don't make the connection between 10" goldfish in a pond and their 2" tiddler in a tank, it's the same species and will get to the same size if treated correctly! Goldies can often live up to 40 years as well, you get people who've had them in a tank for 2 years and then they've died and they think this is just their normal life expectancy, unfortunately it's not the case.

Anyway enough of that, I would strongly advise you to move the goldies to the main tank and set your daughter up with the 5 gallon for something super pretty like a siamese fighter fish which is much better suited to that size of tank

 

[wilchil64]

sorry if that sounds really preacy but unfortunately goldfish are one of the most mis treated animals on the planet, people somehow don't make the connection between 10" goldfish in a pond and their 2" tiddler in a tank, it's the same species and will get to the same size if treated correctly! Goldies can often live up to 40 years as well, you get people who've had them in a tank for 2 years and then they've died and they think this is just their normal life expectancy, unfortunately it's not the case.

Anyway enough of that, I would strongly advise you to move the goldies to the main tank and set your daughter up with the 5 gallon for something super pretty like a siamese fighter fish which is much better suited to that size of tank

I presumed there were different sorts of goldfish and that the indoor ones were smaller ones than the pond golfish, to be honest. I also presumed pet stores would give the correct information ...

The 125 l tank is for our tropical fish, not for my daughter. We're starting a community tank. When the goldfish grow I may be able to replace their tank with a bigger one, or transfer them to the pond in the garden, which currently has one goldfish in it - it's a small pond! Currently the goldfish are both less than 1 inch big, I'll keep an eye on the situation.

Just one more question: do goldfish like to be kept on their own, in pairs, or in large groups?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Corleone]

I presumed there were different sorts of goldfish and that the indoor ones were smaller ones than the pond golfish, to be honest. I also presumed pet stores would give the correct information ...

Just one more question: do goldfish like to be kept on their own, in pairs, or in large groups?

They are social fish, and do better with some company. I don't think they're completely shoaling fish that need large groups or stop feeding kept alone, but a pair's better than just one, provided you have space, but just one would be better if you don't have the space - better to keep one healthy than have two suffer.

Anyway, there is some difference between different types of goldfish. Most outdoor pond ones are common, comet, or shubunkins, which are more the classic "fish" shape. These get 18 inches, I've heard of them pushing 2 feet. The most suitable indoor ones are fancy goldfish, which have rounded bodies, and most have some variation on a fan tail. They don't get as long, so they're more easily kept in indoor tanks. They're not really smaller, just more compact. Their bodies can get the size of a grapefruit, so they're comparable size to common pond goldfish, but can turn around in typical indoor tanks where a common goldfish couldn't.

There's also koi, which are related and are similar to common goldfish in some ways, but are a different species. They dwarf even the largest goldfish (they dwarf many of the largest aquarium fish, for that matter), and scarce few indoor tanks are suitable for them, but a lot of pet stores sell baby koi alongside small goldfish.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

ok sounds reasonable, March is a good time of year to transfer goldies from living indorrs to living in a pond so perhaps keep them in until then and look to move them over in the spring

 

[Hrynkiw]

Same topic, slightly different situation.

I have a small (4gal) tank with under-gravel filter, and have inherited a used 10gal tank with a filter that hangs off the rim. I'd like advice on how to use media (gravel?) from the 4gal to jump-start the fishless cycle in the 10gal.

I have (and use regularly) a water-testing kit.

Hopefully, Hrynkiw.

 

[Corleone]

Get a nylon filter bag, put a cup or so of gravel in it and cram it in the filter however it'll fit.

 

[Hrynkiw]

Get a nylon filter bag, put a cup or so of gravel in it and cram it in the filter however it'll fit.

Wow -- right in the filter? Presumably so the beneficial bacteria will propagate into whatever filter media I can cram in around the gravel, yes?

This I can do. Thank-you for your advice.

Forward!

 

[wilchil64]

Hi

Just wanted to say thanks so much for your help, we did as suggested with the filter from the goldfish tank and the nitrites values are already right down to nothing and we've got 6 Leopard Danios in our tank, which are darting around all over the place and seem quite happy.

We've been having a look on the net and thinking about what to put in next, I know this probably isn't the right place, but any suggestions? We'd like something that isn't too sensitive and will be happy in a community tank of 125 litres and also put some colour in. Not wanting to add everything at once but take our time with it.

My other half would like sharks but we understand the silver ones grow to quite a size and others may not be happy in a community tank? I'd like an angel fish and a blue siamese fighting fish, also neon tetras and some guppies, and something to clean the tank, maybe a pleci or loaches or catfish (I like the glass catfish!)

Thanks again for the help.

 

[waterdrop]

Well that's just great news that your mature media transfer from goldfish to tropicals has worked out. Thanks for the update!

Stocking choices are pretty personal (although always good to discuss with members as you are doing) and some of the things you want (Angels, cories, neons) are among the ones that might do ok but you'd really be better off letting your tank settle and mature for six months, with good regular maintenance. The danios were absolutely the best choice for first fish you could have made, a no-brainer. I started our recent tank with them also, but in addition I added a small group of rasbora heteromorphs which I'd always wanted to have. They are not brightly colored but have a subtle pink to red coloring with a sheen that really grows on you. They're hardy, less busy than the danios, but get along with the danios just fine. A group of 5 was great. There are also about 3 types of dwarf cories (catfish of sorts), at least one or two of which are basically bottom dwellers but are very lively and fun in a group of 5 or so - you might check these out, there have been numerous discussions of them on the forums.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[wilchil64]

Stocking choices are pretty personal (although always good to discuss with members as you are doing) and some of the things you want (Angels, cories, neons) are among the ones that might do ok but you'd really be better off letting your tank settle and mature for six months, with good regular maintenance. The danios were absolutely the best choice for first fish you could have made, a no-brainer. I started our recent tank with them also, but in addition I added a small group of rasbora heteromorphs which I'd always wanted to have. They are not brightly colored but have a subtle pink to red coloring with a sheen that really grows on you. They're hardy, less busy than the danios, but get along with the danios just fine. A group of 5 was great. There are also about 3 types of dwarf cories (catfish of sorts), at least one or two of which are basically bottom dwellers but are very lively and fun in a group of 5 or so - you might check these out, there have been numerous discussions of them on the forums.

~~waterdrop~~

I'll take a look at the rasbora heteromorphs and the dwarf corie. Will the dwarf cories "hoover" up the algae and muck at the bottom? Also how about Guppies, are they fairly hardy, and fairly sociable? There are some beautiful colours out there ... Also, how many of them together, I read one male with 2 to 3 females, or the females can get too stressed ...?

Also how about a shrimp or two or hoovering up around the bottom of the tank? are they a good additon now?

Thanks again.