Copper (with Regards To Fish Disease Treatment)

[fry_lover]

Okay, i did read the sticky, still not sure this is appropriate for the Scientific Forum, but i was worried this thread would just get lost in the abyss that can be "tropical discussion"

I was going to just PM Big Nose and ask him, but perhaps other's know......

for Info - This is just me getting busy with my own personal research into fish meds, i am not currently using any meds or have any need to use meds (thankfully)

Right,

Waterlife Protozin contains Copper Sulphate at 0.015% w/v, i believe this equates to 15mg per 100mls, from the instructions on Protozin, if you had a 100 litre tank, you would end up dosing a total of 1.005mg of Copper Sulphate (or 0.01 mg/l)

Interpet Anti Slime and Velvet containts Copper EDTA at 3,750 mg per 100mls which i believe is 3.75% w/v. from the instructions on the product, if you had a 100 litre tank, you would end up dosing a total of 1428mg of Copper E.D.T.A (or 14.28 mg/l)

Now from looking around on Google i found this explaination around E.D.T.A

E.D.T.A. (ethylene diamine tetra acidic acid)
USE: Chelates and inactivates heavy metal ions such as calcium, iron, copper, and other tri-plex ions. lowers pH.

I also found this

EDTA (ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid) is a common sequestrant and antioxidant added to foods, body care, and household products. It occurs as disodium calcium EDTA, tetrasodium EDTA, and disodium dihydrogen EDTA. As a sequestrant, it binds trace minerals such as copper, iron and nickel that may be in the product. If not inactivated, these minerals will lead to discoloration, rancidity and textural breakdown. When added as an antioxidant, EDTA prevents oxygen from causing color changes and rancidity.


What i want to know is, what's the difference in Interpet using EDTA at 14.28mg/l per dose and Waterlife using Sulphate at 0.01mg/l per dose?

What product has more actual copper in it per dose?

Also, as a side issue i read somewhere that levels of copper between 0.15ppm and 0.20ppm is the "therapeutic range" in terms of treating fish disease, it's also my understanding that copper has anti-bacterial, anti-fungal and anti-protozoan properties, is this correct? Although it's also my understanding that Copper is mostly used for it's anti-protozoan properties in the home aquarium.

Any other comments (or issues of debate) on Copper? I know marine keepers test for it (or some do) and that's it's deadly with inverts.

 

[rabbut]

I too have heard comments about copper being useful for bacterial, protozoan and fungral infection, though how much weight it carries in each application I'm not sure. If it did treat all, surely it would be used to tread all three in one medication? Mebe some other poster on here could explain which it is most effective at treating, and which, if any, are unaffected by this compound.

Copper being damaging to inverts is an iteresting one, that is regularly quoted. I say it is interesting, as copper is added at trace levels to all the marine systems at my place of work, including shrimp and coral tanks. If it were toxic I would have thought I'd have observed some effects by now. Can I add an aditional couple of questions to your thread? How long can it take copper to poisong inverts, and at what levels does this compound become toxic to the various aquatic organisums? A paper on such would be an interesting read, particularly if disease caursing organisums were included in the orgnaisums being tested

Sorry, I can't answer your questions from a scientific outlook, but from some observations (which I know carry no weight here) I have made while treating fish, fish with protozoan infections certainly did appear to respond to copper based medications

All the best
Rabbut

 

[fry_lover]

yes please do add comments, i'm a little disapointed this thread had attracted such little response, i know it's not exactly the most exciting thread, but i am sure someone on here knows about this whole Copper Sulphate / EDTA thing.

You welcome to exapand the thread a bit Rabbut

 

[fry_lover]

Well, i found this today which appears to explain somewhat about the reasons for using chelated copper as opposed to other forms of copper



Chelated Copper
Parasitic Disease Preventative


PURPOSE AND BENEFIT
Chelated Copper is a precisely formulated copper solution for the prevention and treatment of the two most serious marine protozoan parasites, Oodinium ocellatum and Cryptocaryon irritans. These protozoans are commonly found on newly acquired fishes. If not controlled, they can cause extensive mortalities. The use of copper ion for the control of these protozoans has been well established, and is still considered the drug of choice for treatment. Chelated Copper, when used as directed at a concentration of 0.25 ppm, is safe and effective in the control of these dangerous parasites.

A chelating agent is a compound which strongly binds metal ions (i.e. copper) and forms a stable complex under specified conditions. The process of "chelation" confers upon the chemical complex some important chemical properties.

The advantages of using Kordon's Chelated Copper are: (1) The formulation resists precipitation and adsorption by coral, aquarium substrates, and activated carbon. There is an extremely slow removal of the compound from the aquarium system. (2) Traditional usage with copper-citric acid solutions necessitates the need for frequent additions of solution. The free ion in such solutions, when added to seawater, is quickly removed. When using Kordon's Chelated Copper, the aquarist need not make such frequent additions to an aquatic system, since it is stable within the pH range of 2.0-8.5. (3) Chelation renders the metal ion less toxic. The formulation can be used at higher dosages with marine fishes with less fear of toxicity. Kordon's Chelated Copper is an essential medication for all marine aquarists, and should be available at all times for the treatment of marine fishes.

GENERAL DIAGNOSIS OF PARASITIC DISEASES OF FISHES
The following brief summary of clinical signs often associated with the parasitic protozoans discussed above is intended only as an aid for the beginning aquarist. It is not to be thought of as a definitive diagnostic key. It is also important that the aquarist consult appropriate, accurate references for more specific information regarding disease problems of marine fishes. In addition, if possible, skin and/or gill smears should be made and examined by a qualified fish diagnostician. Microscopic examination is recommended and is always essential for confirmation of a particular disease. In the clinical signs indicated below, a particular description may be followed by a specific disease causing organism in brackets. This indicates that there is a high probability that the cause of the disease you observed on the fish is the organism indicated in the brackets. It should be qualified that different clinical signs can be seen during the disease process and that these can occur as the result of more than one disease causing organism.

Clinical Signs:
Increased respiration; hemmorrhagic body lesions; loss of normal body coloration; scratching on objects or tank bottom; white opaque to grayish papules on skin, gills and eyes of the host [Cryptocaryon]; randomly distributed powdery or dust-like spots on body, having a yellowish cast [Oodinium].

SPECIFICATIONS
Contains 0.192% copper from reagent grade copper sulfate, formulated with a powerful, nontoxic, food grade chelating agent.
Dosage: Add 1 teaspoon (approximately 5 ml) per 10 gallons of water. This produces a concentration of 0.25 ppm. When treating at the recommended dose, 4 ounces will treat 240 gallons of water.

MODE OF ACTION
Although the exact mechanism is not understood biochemically, it is believed that copper ion interferes with the activity of certain enzymes by disrupting the structure of disullide bonds in the parasites' cells, causing irreversible damage to the proteins.

STABILITY
Chelated Copper is stable indefinitely. Keep tightly closed when not in use to prevent evaporation and increased concentration of the solution.

 

[waterdrop]

yes please do add comments, i'm a little disapointed this thread had attracted such little response, i know it's not exactly the most exciting thread, but i am sure someone on here knows about this whole Copper Sulphate / EDTA thing.

You welcome to exapand the thread a bit Rabbut

I'm sure there were others like me who found this an interesting read but just don't know much about the topic!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Aphotic Phoenix]

Copper being damaging to inverts is an iteresting one, that is regularly quoted. I say it is interesting, as copper is added at trace levels to all the marine systems at my place of work, including shrimp and coral tanks. If it were toxic I would have thought I'd have observed some effects by now. Can I add an aditional couple of questions to your thread? How long can it take copper to poisong inverts, and at what levels does this compound become toxic to the various aquatic organisums? A paper on such would be an interesting read, particularly if disease caursing organisums were included in the orgnaisums being tested

Copper-induced damage to the hepatopancreas of the penaeid shrip Metapenaeus dobsoni
Doesn't cover all of your questions, but is an extremely interesting read!

 

[fry_lover]

Thanks, much appreciated