Compatibility of mbuna species

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:D Hello all, Merry Christmas, Happy Hannuka, Happy Kwanzaa!
I hope everyone's Holiday is going well.

As some of you know, I'm in the process of doing a fishless cycle of my 55g tank. I finally began seeing nitrItes, and they are multiplying exponentially. Call me a geek, but this is so exciting to me!

While the tank is cycling, I have been researching the cichlid population that I intend to keep. This is my semi-final list, and I am submitting it here, to get your opinions, experiences and overall feedback. Any and all is welcome!
--All species will be juvies, none over 2 inches in length at the start.


The Definates, ones I really want and will make adjustments around them as necessary:
-Pseudotropheus saulosi - 3 Males, 9 Females
-Melanochromis auratus - 5 or so, All females
-Cynotilapia afra (cobue) - 2 Male, 5-6 female
-Nimbochromis livingstoni - 2
-Plecos (undecided subspecies) - 2


The Possibles (if one or more of the definates aren't good choices):
-Copadichromis borelyi
-Iodotropheus sprengerae
-Melanochromis chipokae
-Pseudotropheus elongatus (chalosia, chewhere)
-Pseudotropheus flavus
-Pseudotropheus polit
-Placidochromis phenocilus

Let's hear your thoughts! :nod:
 
These are my thoughts, and I hope they don't disapoint you too much, but I see some problems.

1. 30 fish ranging from 4 to 6 inches (and one that gets to 10) in a 55 gallon aquarium. If you really intend to stock so heavily you had better be prepared for a whole lot of water changes and a boost in filtration above and beyone what you have so far. You would be better off not stocking so heavily, for the sake of both the fish and yourself.

2. Nimbochromis is a large predator hap. Not only would even one adult be too large for that tank, but it will eventually make a meal out of your Saulosi. Bad idea.

3. Both melanochromis are highly aggressive species. They are not just territorial like most cichlids, but just plain mean. Saulosi is fairly unaggressive. Things will work out for a while, but eventually you will have problems. Your Saulosi will not be comfortable in such a high aggression environment, and sooner or later you will probably have casualties. Do yourself a favor and stay away from them unless you want to forget Saulosi and go for a real aggressive setup.

4. Mixing haps with mbuna? possible, but you must be careful. First of all, haps like open space and room to move, meaning lower stocking densities. Quite the opposite of your plan. Secondly, they become very uncomfortable, even with their larger size, with aggressive terrors like Auratus. Then there is the diet issue between mbuna and haps. You would be much better off if you went with one or the other, and if you want both you need to plan more carefully.

Basically what I'm saying, is that the only adjustments you can make to have your 'definates' list work, is to set up a second tank. And if you want Nimbochromis in it, make it at least a 75 gallon 4 footer, although a 120 gallon six footer would be better. It's good that you are taking your time, cause you've still go planning to do ;)
 
Hmmmm, glad I posted this thread. Thanks Freddy. :*) Ok, let's see.... I had a feeling that the Nimbochromis livingstoni wouldnt sit too well. So they'll eat my other fish even as juveniles? I've seen video of large ones playing dead and attacking smaller mbuna, (SO cool) but surely they wouldn't attack fish the same size or larger than they themselves? Once they get bigger, my plan was to get the larger tank. (a good excuse to start one). Are there any mbuna with similar markings? Brown and white?

Perhaps a more aggressive tank is what I'm looking for. (although I was somehow under the impression that P Saulosi were pretty good at holding their own) I really like Melanochromis. Can they live well with a more aggressive Pseudotropheus species? Lets say a tank with Melanochromis auratus or Chipokae and Pseudotropheus Elongatus? (cancelling the P. Saulosi completely).

How does this list look?

-Pseudotropheus elongatus
-Melanochromis auratus or chipokae
-Cynotilapia afra (is this a Hap??)
-Plecos (undecided subspecies)
-add a species you think will work?


I'm confused how many of each fish I can have. I thought more fish equals less aggression. So could you suggest how many of each of the species I mentioned will make the best setup?

Also, are females aggressive as well? Let's say I took a species considered aggresive, but only stocked the female of that species?

I'm getting confused here. :S

On a positive note-- the tank is cycling perfectly :hyper:
 
although I was somehow under the impression that P Saulosi were pretty good at holding their own

Not with an auratus or chipokae but neither are any other Africans, imo.

Perhaps a more aggressive tank is what I'm looking for.  I really like Melanochromis. Can they live well with a more aggressive Pseudotropheus species?

You can have an auratus and a chipokae along with more aggro Mbuna like zebra, johanni and kenyi. Make no mistake, no matter what you get the chipokae will be the dominate fish no matter what but those others will fall in line nicely. chipokae are relatively peaceful fish unless challenged and then they will take the other fish out. I haven't ever had a problem with a chipokae causing trouble in the tank once he establishes dominance. IMO, a chipokae is inch for inch the nastiest fish there is. Nonetheless, I highly recommend a chipokae in an aggro setup though because it's nice having a fish with this disposition at the top. It's a lot better harmony among all.

I wouldn't add any hap to this list though.

I'm confused how many of each fish I can have. I thought more fish equals less aggression

With Mbuna this is true but in a 55g 30 fish is pretty overstocked, imo.

You also need to find out how many and what kind of plecos you want as this is very important to how many Mbuna you can add.
 
Yet more questions......
-So what's the right number of fish for this tank? I'm hearing/reading incongruant numbers ...from 15 to 30.... How's 20 then?

-Once the tank is cycled, do you think I should put the more aggro fish in first to establish territories/dominance? --or-- After the less aggro species, so that territories are established prior to their arrival? The tank is rock filled, with many, many hidey holes.

-What about just getting the female of a species. Would that put the aggression in check somewhat?

-Are Cynotilapia afra compatible with P. Elongatus and the Melanochromis species I mentioned? I havent read anything defining them as Haplochromis.

-Regarding Melanochromis: Do you suggest only a single male per species in the tank, or can I go with two or more?


Sorry, Lots of questions. Wish there were "rules of thumb". It would make this alot less confusing. Everytime I figure something out, 3 more questions pop up. Thanks for helping me out though, fishy peeps, I can't do this right without your experienced guidance B)
 
So what's the right number of fish for this tank? I'm hearing/reading incongruant numbers ...from 15 to 30.... How's 20 then?

15 sounds like a good number of adults to aim for. Now, you can do 30 fish at first provided that you have a complete understanding that it is very important to start thinning them out as they grow. Getting more at first will make sure that you get the m/f ratios you are looking for. In addition, you may have have a 55 gallon tank, but by the time you fill it with sand and rocks you are looking at something like 25 to 35 gallons of actual water volume, depending on how much rock you are using. Assuming 35 gallons of water and 20 fish that average 5" long, you are looking at almost 3" of fish per gallon. Yikes, be prepared to do water changes ever other day!



Once the tank is cycled, do you think I should put the more aggro fish in first to establish territories/dominance? --or-- After the less aggro species, so that territories are established prior to their arrival? The tank is rock filled, with many, many hidey holes

With real aggressors like this the best way that you can stock the tanks is all at once, that way a hierarchy is sorted out, and every fish quickly learns its place. Put a very territoral fish in first and he will assume that more of the tank is his to defend. When you do add new fish to an aggressive tank you often need to re-organize the rocks so that current fish need to establish new territory.

Are Cynotilapia afra compatible with P. Elongatus and the Melanochromis species I mentioned?
Yes, they are mbuna and pretty tough. What will work with what is never certain with fish like this. All we can do is give our best advice, and all you can do is hope things work out.

Regarding Melanochromis: Do you suggest only a single male per species in the tank, or can I go with two or more

No, only one male. Unless kept in a massive tank males will kill each other. There are only a few species of mbuna in which males tolerate each other in close quarters.


Regarding the pleco, consider getting none. First, there are very few that would work. Second, mbuna love algae, and it is a very integral part of their natural environment. Having a nice carpet of algae on the rocks provides mbuna with something to do besides chase each other, and gives the aquarium a better display of natural behavior. It also provides a nice snack for them between meals. If anything I like to increase lighting to get the algae to grow better. Scrubbing algae of the walls is easy to do yourself. In an mbuna tank algae is your friend ;-)
If you do decide on a pleco anyway, look at the Bristlenose. It is a very hardy and tough specimen that grows large enough, but not too large.

The Pseudotropheus species you chose can work with the Melanochromis. Lombaroi (old name Kenyi) is a species, as I mentioned earlier, that can give Melanochromis a run for their money in aggression. Going with just one melanochromis variety is a good idea.

Lastly, If you can manage it you should set up a hospital tank, and run a small filter for it in the main tank to keep it cycled. This way you can have a place to put extra males or fish getting their butts kicked. Sometimes there is one aggressor in a tank causing all the problems, in which case it would be that one who would get the solitary confinement.
 
Thanks for the reply, Freddy.

OK how does this list look to you?

1 male M. Johanni with 3 females, (instead of auratus--found out how bad they really are)
1 male P. Elongatus (suggest a good form) with 3 females
1 male P. Lombardoi with 3 females

1 male P. (metriclima) Zebra with 3 females
--or--
1 male Cynotilapia afra "Cobue" with 3 females


have I found a workable mix?
 
I think that you're last list is a good goal to aim for :nod: No matter how perfectly you choose the fish there will be some problems to be worked out in an mbuna tank, so be prepared to intervene regardless of what you choose.
 

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