Changed, Starting Out.

[JJ56]

Hey,

I currently have my smallest tank in my room, housing a few of my freshwater fish, but I have been pondering converting it into a small nano tank.

The tank is 24" long, 8" deep and 9" tall, so its nice and shallow but with a nice length to it. This means the tank is only 7 US gallons or 28 litres.

I would like to convert this to saltwater, and have read up on the problems with small volumes of water and stability, yet after seeing so many succsessful "pico" tanks I am pretty keen on this. The pinned topics on here have been a great help.

If I were to convert it, I'm not even sure if I would feel right keeping marine fish in a tank this small, but I would like you're views on this, but I would primarily set up, aquascape and cycle the tank, as I am quite interested in what would come of live rock (inverts / plants etc)

Would I be able to use any of this kit I am using / have spare now?

50w adjustable heater
Sand (play sand, or am I much better of with crushed coral or "live" sand.
Sponge filter, Im guessing I would lose this for a powerhead, just using the live rock as a filter?
15w light, length of the tank with reflector, cannot remember the type... can easily upgrade bulb to a brighter one.

So I ask for advice from people who have succsessfully kept tanks of this size, any advice, lists of items, etc.

I don't mind you telling me straight if this is a bad idea, and I would be more than happy to put off this idea and start with a much bigger tank in the future, but for my room, the tank is perfect!

Cheers

JJ

 

[Ludwig Venter]

IMO..... No experience with salt, but never seen them this small......& logically... don't think it's on???...

 

[JJ56]

Well, looking down this board, a few people are succsessfully running 5.5 gallon tanks, established ones at that, which is what gave me the idea, assuming I can crack the water paremeters, I dont see why I cant get some good results with a small, basic tank?

Thanks for you're input, however if you search pico tanks in google, you'll find some as small as 1 gallon! which I find unbelievable.

I may be able to get a hold of a 10 gallon tank, which would give me some more leeway with the water.

JJ

 

[Ludwig Venter]

Well, looking down this board, a few people are succsessfully running 5.5 gallon tanks, established ones at that, which is what gave me the idea, assuming I can crack the water paremeters, I dont see why I cant get some good results with a small, basic tank?

Thanks for you're input, however if you search pico tanks in google, you'll find some as small as 1 gallon! whcih I find unbelievable.

I may be able to get a hold of a 10 gallon tank, which would give me some more leeway with the water.

JJ

ITC.... Go for it..... Tell us about it afterwards.

 

[JJ56]

Well, thats the thing, after reading up on this branch of fishkeeping, I have learned not to rush anything, I will not be starting this until I am 100% ready for the commitment, issues and money involved within it.

So I am looking for tips from succsesful pico / nano owners, on what I should look at when starting, what to avoid etc.

How much more help would bumping up to a 10 gallon give me? I'm assuming using more live rock, and more stable water paremeters.

Still looking for advice on the issues detailed in my first post, dont be afraid to comment / criticise. Thanks guys!

JJ

 

[kj23502]

Well, I'm starting 2 tanks. In the process of a 29 gallon and soon after Christmas the 120 gallon. I've read quite a few good books and websites...though first hand knowledge I'm lacking in atm.

Wow, the original tank you speak of is only about 7usg. You may be able to keep a small fish such as a yellow watchman goby, but that would be about it. I'm not 100% on that either. You could, of course, have your CUC(clean up crew) such as a few snails and maybe 1 crab. Maybe a shrimp depending(not sure on that...just an idea for you to look into).

I'd say go with as large as you can. If you can fit a 29 gallon in the same spot, I'd do that. Yes, the water is more stable, which gives more room for error that's bound to happen when learning something new. Also, from what I've read it's really hard for most people getting into this hobby to stick to "I don't need another fish" and end up trying to cram the tank. With a 29 gallon you could add one fish and see how the water parameters work out for you etc and then at a later date add another when you feel comfortable. You could potentially have 4 or 5 smallish fish in there in the end. Plus, if you decide to do corals eventually, then stability is definitely more on your side.

As for the heater: only if it's usable in saltwater. The box should say. If you don't have the box see if you can look up the brand on the net on some reputable sites or go to your local fish store if they have the same thing. If you can't find if it's usable for saltwater or not, it's best not to chance it.

I would use crushed coral. It buffers the water helping keep the PH where it needs to be and leaches "good" minerals into the water.

Use a ph. It's recommended that people do 20x tank turnover total with the powerheads. For a 7 gallon tank you'd want 140 gallons per hour.

The rock will be your filter. You can set the sponge aside to save for a later date. It's a general rule to have 1 lb of lr per gallon of water.

If you're not keeping anything that requires strong light, such as corals or clams, then that's totally up to your tastes and what you prefer. Clams aren't recommended for small tanks anyway. Corals are possible.


Hope that helps

 

[kj23502]

I hear of Koralia powerheads being mentioned on here alot. That's the brand I'm getting. They do make a nano version which may work for your tankn....not sure on the power of it though. Again, another thing for you to ponder and look into.

Another thing:
Where are you going to get your water? Buy it from your fish store? Or buy an r/o unit and mix your own? It's also possible to buy r/o water from your lfs and then mix the salt at home. Since it's a small tank, you won't have as large a cost in salt as say my 120 gallon will be. I'll be buying my own r/o unit and mixing the salt myself. It also depends on how close a lfs is to you. And you always want to keep extra on hand incase of an emergency or something. Then you can do a quick water change if needed.

 

[JJ56]

Thanks for all of the advice mate, thats helped me alot!

Well, I could go for a larger tank, but I like the idea of a small nano in my room, I suppose I could squeeze a larger tank in, but I dont want anything too dominating.

As I said, I wouldnt be doing this just to have lots of fish, I wouldn't feel right keeping marine fish in a tank of this size. Perhaps I should just look for a bigger tank. I like the idea of a tank which I can see develop as all sorts of life come from the liverock, then maybe add some low light corals, and possibly small fish.

I'm pretty sure I can get hold of a larger tank, and I will be getting a load of info, knowledge and maybe saltwater kit when my uncle gets back from work next week, he is big into marine fishkeeping, and it's likely I'll be getting some of the setup from him.

As for water, I'll initially be buying RO water from my lfs, as any tank I use won't be huge, and I'll most likely be mixing salt myself. (unless my uncle has a RO unit or can provide me with ready mixed water)

This may be a odd idea, could I make this little 7g into a sump for a bigger tank? I have little to no experience with this, could I house some of the equiptment in here to save tank asthetics?

Thanks for the advice on the powerheads, I'll shortlist them.

Someone correct me if I'm missing something for my nano:

Biggest tank I find that will fit in my room nicely, (wont be anything huge)
crushed coral
live rock
powerhead(s?)
Heater
Brighter bulb for my light?
Water, RO from shot mixed myself?
Complete saltwater test kit
(Protein skimmer? grey area for me?)

Eventually, clean up crew

Hope someone can help me out, but the general concencus is to not use the 7g?

Cheers

JJ

 

[xxBarneyxx]

Couple of things you need to think about are what you want out of the tank.

I wouldn't recommend the 7g as a first marine tank because it will be a constant effort to keep it running well (or cost a LOT of money to set up automatic systems to take some of the work out of it).

Personally my first marine tank was 45-50l and I wouldnt recommend going small than that for your first tank. Im fairly dedicated but even on this size of tank it takes quiet a bit of work to keep it stable.

You mention that you like the idea of liverock and just seeing what emerges and you are not overly fussed about the fish. Liverock watching is fun but unless you get some really interesting hitchhikers you will eventually want to add something more to it.

At this point there are two route most people tend to go down. Either a Fish only with live rocks (FOWLR) or a reef with corals (and usually a few fish). Personally in a smaller tank I think the options for FOWLR are fairly limited. There are some interesting fish species you could have in a smaller tank but (again just in my personal opinion) going down the coral route gives you a nicer looking tank (depends on your taste really).

So for the Coral route:
Biggest tank you can get.
crushed coral or aragonite sand (or bare bottom if you prefer)
Live rock (check the caculator on this site to work out how much you would need).
A source of RO water (a must for a reef system).
A source of salt (could get ready mixed water but probably cheaper to just get a big tub of salt if you have a good RO source).
Refractometer - for measuring salinity.
Test kits - Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PH as min. Phosphate, magnsium, calcium kits could also be useful but you can do without them in a softie tank.
Powerheads - It depends on what corals you have. Unless you have a lot of time and money I would recommend starting off with soft corals as they are easier to keep and require less lighting then SPS and LPS. Typically you want to have at least X30 turnover of the tank. So if you have a 20g tank you need powerheads that will give you 600g per hour of flow. Its best to do this with two or three smaller powerheads rather than 1 big one. If one then dies the rest will keep you going until you replace it. More flow is usally better but a X30 is minimum most recommend for the LR filtration.
Lighting - If you are just keeping soft corals then you could probably get away with some power compacts. Ideally I would recommend using T5's. MH lights are best but expensive and not needed for soft corals. Most marine people hate using the Watts per gallon rule (because it really doesnt work that well) but as a general aim if your using power compacts or T5 lights you want around 4watts per gallon as a min.
Heater - Depends on the size of your tank.
A camera - (so you can post pics of it as it progresses ).

Option kit:
External canister filter. Empty all the media out, put in some LR rubble in the bottom and then use the other parts for chemical filtration (nitrate/phosphate removers).
Sump - Yes you could use your 7g as a sump tank and hide the other equipment in it. You will either need your main tank to be drilled with overflows or you will need to use an overflow box. A drilled tank is a bettter option (heard bad things about leaky overflow boxes). Then you just have a pump in the sump that returns the water to the main tank (make sure the pump flow is not higher then what the overflow from the display tank can handle).
Skimmer - Skimmers do help a lot with water quality. You can live without them though (my tank has been running almost a year without one and done fine). If you can get one though it is worth it (and this can go in your sump as well).

In terms of stocking, assuming you get a 20g tank you could go for maybe a pair of clowns, a firefish and a small goby. There are also loads of inverts you can get such as hermit crabs, snails, normal crabs and shrimp.

For the corals you could go for any of the ones from the links below, most are very easy to care for and dont require too much light or special conditions.
http/www.tropicalfish4u.co.uk/Corals/Soft-Corals
http/www.tropicalfish4u.co.uk/Corals/Polyps


Dont think I missed anything from there but someone will correct me if im wrong. Hopefully enough info to get you looking in the right direction but definetly ask more questions about everything if you need to. If you haven't done so already have a read through the marine journals as they are a great source of information.

http/www.fishforums.net/category/105/Mar...arium-Journals/

 

[JJ56]

Someone give this guy a big hand, I am.

A phenomanal source of help, I appreciate it. You have convinced me to go for the biggest tank I can, and Imdefinatly considering the 7g as a small sump.

I like the idea of a small reef, lots of liverock (enough to suit whatever tank size I get) and soft corals / polyps. And yeah, maybe a few small fish and inverts.

One thing I'm unsure of is the water, yes I can buy RO water from a lfs, but maybe a unit would be more useful? I hear they are pretty expensive though.

Once again mate, thanks for all of you're help, you've given me alot to research and learn about, and I'm sure it will help me build a beautiful reef

JJ

 

[xxBarneyxx]

No problem at all, after all the help I have had from the guys (and girls) here its the least I can do to try and pass a bit of that on.

With regards to the RO unit. It depends on what size of tank you eventually get. Assuming you get a 20g ish tank that is

20g for first fill
say maybe 3-5g for top ups for a month (pure guess here)
10g a month for water changes.

I have no idea how much RO water costs but guess maybe £2-3 for 5g? so maybe £14 for the first month and say about £9 after that.
so in 6 months thats about £60+petrol (if your LFS isnt close) + the hassle of having to go out and get it all the time.

I could be way off on the price of RO water but even if it is half that still £30 for 6 months (and a massive PITA, especially in the winter). A 50GPD 3 stage RO unit is £65 from http/www.ro-man.com/shop/index.php/cPath/22_89 Im sure I saw a 30gpd 2 stage unit not long ago for about £30 (this would take an age to make water but for £30 you cant complain just set it up in the evenings for a couple of weeks to make a good supply and then top it up every so often).

I was going to buy my RO water for my nano as it doesnt use that much but my nearest LFS is about 45 minutes drive from where I live so it was really easier to get a unit for myself. If your on a water meter though then getting it from your LFS might be a good option (it wastes a LOT of water, think its something like 1/4 of it goes to RO water and the rest is waste, good for using on your garden though).

If you do go for an RO unit get one of the "washing machine Y connectors" as well when you order it. This is just a connector that fits on the cold water pipe where your washing machine attaches and then connects to the RO unit and washing machine. It saves messing about putting holes through water pipes (and them stupid saddle valves ALWAYS leak).

 

[JJ56]

More great advice, now I have list if everything I need to get started, just need to prioritise it so I can see what I should look for.

In what order would I benefity from buying this kit in?

1. Tank, biggest I can get, hopefuly with stand / hood

crushed coral or aragonite sand
Live rock
RO unit
A source of salt
Refractometer - for measuring salinity.
Complete test kit
Powerheads
Lighting
Heater
Clean up crew
Soft Corals

Thanks again,

JJ

 

[JJ56]

Anyone?

Also, question with live rock, should it always be kept wet for best results? You see some people setting up aquariums with it dry, and not filling up water for a good while. So I was thinking, is it better to get the tank full of mixed water, circulating when you add the live rock, or add and position it in a empty tank and positioning it accordingly?

Sorry if I seem to be asking loads of questions, but I'd rather make a proper job of it when I go out and put a lot of my time and effort (and money) into this.

Cheers

JJ

 

[chrissaysyes]

Ok so here's my two cents...if you start with a 7g tank, you will either get really discouraged when it crashes for some reason or you see how much work it can take for a beginner, or you will love it and want to upgrade to a bigger tank...the second is more likely. I think the majority of the people on this forum probably started with small tanks and quickly wanted to upgrade...usually to accommodate the fish that we all really want rather than having to only keep fish that are suitable for such a small tank. I've kept a large marine tank for some time now, and several small ones...currently running a 1 gallon tank. I can tell you that it's frustrating and not something I would recommend starting off with. Not saying it's not possible. Also, I wouldnt keep any fish in a tank that small...unless you have it empty (except for substrate) and keep all your live rock in a sump. So yeah, you should probably save yourself the money and the trouble and use the 7g as a sump and go for a 20g or so...30g in my opinion is a great size for beginners.

Ok so priorities...this is what I personally would do...

Buy your hardware first...

Tank
Lights
Stand
(I wouldnt really worry about a hood on a tank that small...)
Heater
Powerhead (you really only need one decent one for this setup...unless you'd rather two smaller ones.)

Then start buying your less essential (but still essential) dry goods:
RO unit (honestly I wouldnt bother on a beginner tank unless money isnt an issue)
Refractometer (Again, unless money is no issue, I'd probably recommend just grabbing a $10 Hydrometer)
Salt
Test kits (All you're really going to need in the beginning is kits that test for Nitrites, Nitrates, and Ammonia, dont worry about trace elements right now)

Once you have everything you need then you can start one step at a time...water, salt, and substrate; liverock; CuC; etc...

I know everyone wont agree with all of that, but that's the way I would go about it.

crushed coral or aragonite sand
Live rock
RO unit
A source of salt
Refractometer - for measuring salinity.
Complete test kit
Powerheads
Lighting
Heater
Clean up crew
Soft Corals

Also, question with live rock, should it always be kept wet for best results?

When you see people with dry rock, it is either just being unwrapped from the wet paper towels/news paper that it is usually wrapped in upon leaving the lfs, or you see them receiving dry, uncured liverock in the mail.

The benefit to keeping it wet is to eliminate die-off which will spike your ammonia. Ideally, you would probably want to go the route that I have. I go to my LFS and bring along a large 5 gallon bucket. I buy my rock and have her add enough water to the bucket to cover half of the rock. I then cover the top of the rock with wet paper towels. That way when I get home I can either add the new rock directly to the tank without die-off ever causing any mini spikes or recycling the tank. This also makes the initial cycle a little quicker because you're not adding to the initial ammonia in your tank. Soooo yeah. Try to get your rock wet. Remember that it is called LIVE rock because it is FILLED with living organisms. You will be amazed when you see what comes out of your rocks!

oh, I forgot, you may want to grab a pH test kit as well as some marine pH buffer.

 

[JJ56]

Thanks for all of the useful infomation, I now feel confident in what I should go out to look for.

Nice big tank, biggest I can house / afford, possibly using the 7g as a sump.

I'll come back and report with my purchases as soon as I can.

Thanks guys!

JJ