Catastrophic episode in my 180l tank

[mariedmead]

I got a call from my husband while I was out last night to say 3 out of 4 of my flying foxes were dead! They were fine when I fed them in the morning. He removed the bodies and said they had red patches in them. This morning when I got up my bristle nosed ansistrus 1 lemon tetra and 1 golden white cloud mountain minnow were also dead. This just leaves 5 rummy nose tetra and 1 flying fox. The tank has been established for nearly 5 years I've never had a mass death like this before. [emoji26] I've treated the tank with esha 2000 but didn't have time to do much else before work.

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[FroFro]

I got a call from my husband while I was out last night to say 3 out of 4 of my flying foxes were dead! They were fine when I fed them in the morning. He removed the bodies and said they had red patches in them. This morning when I got up my bristle nosed ansistrus 1 lemon tetra and 1 golden white cloud mountain minnow were also dead. This just leaves 5 rummy nose tetra and 1 flying fox. The tank has been established for nearly 5 years I've never had a mass death like this before. [emoji26] I've treated the tank with esha 2000 but didn't have time to do much else before work.

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Have you checked your water parameters lately? An established tank should still be tested to keep an eye on things. Please list your Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, Ph, and alkalinity levels. When was the last time you cleaned the gravel? How often and how much do you feed your fish and with what food? Do you remove any uneaten food after a few minutes so it doesn't rot at the bottom of the tank? When was the last time you changed your water? How often do you change your water and at what quantity? 25%? 50%?

Have you added anything new to the tank? Plants, ornaments, fish, chemical additives other than water conditioner?

An established tank can still suffer spikes in water parameters if it is not properly maintained. A strict feeding schedule and water changes and gravel cleanings will keep the tank stable. I suggest answering all the questions I've asked ASAP because it will give others on the forum the information they need before they can actually help you.

 

[Byron]

Without more data (such as what FroFro mentioned) it is impossible to suggest the cause, but it would seem, from so sudden and numerous fish deaths, to be something in the water. Was anything added to the tank recently, when was the last water change, any chance of something toxic getting in the tank...etc. Were/are there signs of respiration difficulty in the fish still alive (more rapid than normal respiration, near the surface, and/or gasping)...any rubbing or flashing...any abnormal behaviours of any sort?

I would not recommend using any medication unless there is a certain sign of a disease needed it. The best quick treatment when fish begin suddenly dying is a major water change, up to 75-80%, using only a good conditioner.

Byron.

 

[mariedmead]

Without more data (such as what FroFro mentioned) it is impossible to suggest the cause, but it would seem, from so sudden and numerous fish deaths, to be something in the water. Was anything added to the tank recently, when was the last water change, any chance of something toxic getting in the tank...etc. Were/are there signs of respiration difficulty in the fish still alive (more rapid than normal respiration, near the surface, and/or gasping)...any rubbing or flashing...any abnormal behaviours of any sort?

I would not recommend using any medication unless there is a certain sign of a disease needed it. The best quick treatment when fish begin suddenly dying is a major water change, up to 75-80%, using only a good conditioner.

Byron.

I've been out again this evening straight from work (family commitment) and only just got home. I'll check water parameters etc tomorrow and do a big water change. The remaining fish all looked fine this morning and were swimming around & breathing normally. But then so were the others yesterday. The only thing I did different from normal yesterday was feed some algae pellets which I give occasionally. But I put these in all 3 tanks and the other 2 are fine.

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[mariedmead]

I've been out again this evening straight from work (family commitment) and only just got home. I'll check water parameters etc tomorrow and do a big water change. The remaining fish all looked fine this morning and were swimming around & breathing normally. But then so were the others yesterday. The only thing I did different from normal yesterday was feed some algae pellets which I give occasionally. But I put these in all 3 tanks and the other 2 are fine.

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So the 5 rummy nosed and 1 flying fix are swimming around fine thus morning. I've tested the water using API fresh water master test kit and got the following results:
PH 8.2
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 80
I know we have very hard water but don't have a test for the exact numbers. I know that the nitrate us high but it comes out of the tap at 40ppm. I was thinking of taking the remaining 6 fish and putting them in my 60l tank then totally cleaning out the 180l and starting again.


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[Byron]

So the 5 rummy nosed and 1 flying fix are swimming around fine thus morning. I've tested the water using API fresh water master test kit and got the following results:
PH 8.2
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 80
I know we have very hard water but don't have a test for the exact numbers. I know that the nitrate us high but it comes out of the tap at 40ppm. I was thinking of taking the remaining 6 fish and putting them in my 60l tank then totally cleaning out the 180l and starting again.


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We still need the information requested in post #2 pertaining to normal water changes, additives, etc., and the possibility of something entering the tank. The fish food mentioned is highly unlikely to have caused this, as you say, so there was clearly something in the water that acted very quickly. A water change without conditioner for example could do this, as the chlorine would burn the fishes' gills. Or some substance may have reacted with something else. Or a major sudden change in parameters could shock fish. With any of this, some fish may live through it while others don't.

The GH and KH is important to know, generally as well as here when something goes wrong. You should be able to ascertain these numbers from your water authority if you are on municipal water (as opposed to private well), check their website.

Nitrate at 80 ppm is much too high. This will over time weaken fish, making them more susceptible to other issues, so nitrate can indirectly if not directly cause serious problems for fish. There are ways to deal with nitrate in the source water, but if that is 40 ppm, then the tank maintenance/fish load is doubling it, and that you can easily eliminate/reduce. The more fish, the larger the fish, the more fish foods added, too few water changes, and not cleaning the substrate at each are all factors in nitrate accumulation within the aquarium.

As for "cleaning out" the tank, presumably meaning tearing it down and re-setting, this is a major upheaval with its own issues for fish and as we/you don't know yet just what was the cause of the sudden deaths, I myself wouldn't take this step.

Byron.

 

[mariedmead]

We still need the information requested in post #2 pertaining to normal water changes, additives, etc. The fish food mentioned is highly unlikely to have caused this, as you say, so there was clearly something in the water that acted very quickly. A water change without conditioner for example could do this, as the chlorine would burn the fishes' gills. Or some substance may have reacted with something else. Or a major sudden change in parameters could shock fish. With any of this, some fish may live through it while others don't.

The GH and KH is important to know, generally as well as here when something goes wrong. You should be able to ascertain these numbers from your water authority if you are on municipal water (as opposed to private well), check their website.

Nitrate at 80 ppm is much too high. This will over time weaken fish, making them more susceptible to other issues, so nitrate can indirectly if not directly cause serious problems for fish. There are ways to deal with nitrate in the source water, but if that is 40 ppm, then the tank maintenance/fish load is doubling it, and that you can easily eliminate/reduce. The more fish, the larger the fish, the more fish foods added, too few water changes, and not cleaning the substrate at each are all factors in nitrate accumulation within the aquarium.

Byron.

Sorry I forgot about the other questions. Last water change was 2 weeks ago around 20litres I use prime as a conditioner. According to the Anglian water website our tap water is The water in your area is very hard.

" the water hardness in different units is:367.5 mg/l:Calcium Carbonate147 mg/l:Calcium25.578 °Cegrees Clark36.75 °Fegrees French20.874 °dHegrees German3.675 mmol/l:Millimoles"

Not sure what all that means but Nitrate is 50mg/l

I feed every other day a small pinch of flake food and very occasionally also algae pellets.

I spoke to my local aquarium shop and they also tested the water. They thought it likely to have been caused by a nitrate spike possibly caused by a fish dying and going unnoticed in the tank.

I have moved the remaining fish to another tank as they seem healthy. I've done around an 80% water change and syphoned the gravel. I did find there was a lot of muck in the gravel as I've just been scooping water out with a jug to do water changes. I suspect that this is potentially the issue? I'm going to leave the tank with the filters running until after Xmas then get the water tested before adding fish again.

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[Byron]

That data helps. On the GH, that is indeed hard water. 367.5 mg/l is the same as 367.5 ppm, which is approximately 20 dGH. The ppm and dGH units are the two most commonly used in the hobby. This level of mineral will cause issues for soft water fish, like the tetras especially, over time. The calcium (primarily) dissolved in hard water is filtered out by the fishes' kidneys, and the calcium slowly blocks the kidneys and the fish dies. So this is likely part of the issue, long-term.

Nitrates are very high for fish, and even 50 ppm is high for humans. More regular water changes--at least half the tank every week, vacuuming into the open areas of substrate to remove as much detritus as possible, along with keeping the filters clean will all help to lower the nitrate occurring in the tank. Other members have dealt with high niotrate in the source water, and I will leave it to them to explain methods. AbbeysDad is one who has overcome this issue.

The fish deaths un-noticed would have increased ammonia and then perhaps nitrite, and these two forms of nitrogen are much more rapidly dangerous than nitrate so more likely a possible reason for sudden fish deaths. It is usually easy to see the beginning signs of ammonia or nitrite poisoning; increased respiration, fish closer to the surface and eventually gasping, red gill areas (in live fish), gill covers extended--all this is because the fish are attempting to get more oxygen but can't. Nitrite also inhibits oxygen take-up in the blood, making things worse still.

More frequent and substantial water changes would likely have compensated for the ammonia/nitrite. It is again a question of prevention rather than reacting to the deaths. I think it safe to assume the deaths resulted from all this combined. Live plants haven't been mentioned, but if they are present, especially fast growing species like floating plants, this can be a big help dealing with increases in ammonia, and that of course means no nitrite, and lower nitrate resulting.

Byron.

 

[mariedmead]

That data helps. On the GH, that is indeed hard water. 367.5 mg/l is the same as 367.5 ppm, which is approximately 20 dGH. The ppm and dGH units are the two most commonly used in the hobby. This level of mineral will cause issues for soft water fish, like the tetras especially, over time. The calcium (primarily) dissolved in hard water is filtered out by the fishes' kidneys, and the calcium slowly blocks the kidneys and the fish dies. So this is likely part of the issue, long-term.

Nitrates are very high for fish, and even 50 ppm is high for humans. More regular water changes--at least half the tank every week, vacuuming into the open areas of substrate to remove as much detritus as possible, along with keeping the filters clean will all help to lower the nitrate occurring in the tank. Other members have dealt with high niotrate in the source water, and I will leave it to them to explain methods. AbbeysDad is one who has overcome this issue.

The fish deaths un-noticed would have increased ammonia and then perhaps nitrite, and these two forms of nitrogen are much more rapidly dangerous than nitrate so more likely a possible reason for sudden fish deaths. It is usually easy to see the beginning signs of ammonia or nitrite poisoning; increased respiration, fish closer to the surface and eventually gasping, red gill areas (in live fish), gill covers extended--all this is because the fish are attempting to get more oxygen but can't. Nitrite also inhibits oxygen take-up in the blood, making things worse still.

More frequent and substantial water changes would likely have compensated for the ammonia/nitrite. It is again a question of prevention rather than reacting to the deaths. I think it safe to assume the deaths resulted from all this combined. Live plants haven't been mentioned, but if they are present, especially fast growing species like floating plants, this can be a big help dealing with increases in ammonia, and that of course means no nitrite, and lower nitrate resulting.

Byron.

Thank you very much for your help. I have been keeping tropical fish for 5 years relatively successfully but it seems I still have a lot to learn. I completely take on board all the advice and will put it into practice.

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