cardinal tetra going extinct :,(

[hihello]

Hi hello, just created this account a few minutes ago due to this issue ive been having regarding my cardinals (that i cant find any answer for). I wasnt sure where on the forums to post this to so i just put it at the "beginner" forum since it was filled with questions.

For some background info: The tank theyre currently in is a 500L (150 gallon) aquarium alongside a common pleco thats been forcefully in my care for awhile now. I regurally test the water and so far has been fine, with a certain amount water change every 3 weeks.

My tetra have been slowly dying off, i started off with 10, and now ive inched down to 3. Instead of them all dying quickly behind eachother its always been one at a time that has gotten abnormally fat, eventually died off with a waiting period inbetween before the next one. In the meantime the rest of the tetra have all been acting completely fine with no visible issue. I would guess its some sort of disease but i cant get any helping information about it. Ive tried adding small amounts of dissolved epsom salt into the tank, but it doesnt seem to help much (as for a bath specifically for the affected tetra, ive always looked to be too late as it hasnt made any change). Is this some sort of weird dropsy? And does this weird pattern of one at a time actually mean anything?
(sorry for the blurry picture)

 

[GaryE]

It looks to me like you've gotten farm bred cardinals, and they are carrying a slow moving bacterial disease. But that's a guess. The photo could be an egg laden female or a female stricken with a disease causing swelling. It could also be a viral problem.
The uncertainty means treatment is close to impossible. The photo just doesn't give enough info, and there's no guarantee there is a treatment.

Chances are (and this is sad), you will lose almost all of them. If there are survivors, you'll have to wait a bit to replace the losses to make sure the disease is 'burned out' or dormant. In the meantime, I'd increase your partial water changes to every 7-10 days, and stay with that.

 

[hihello]

It looks to me like you've gotten farm bred cardinals, and they are carrying a slow moving bacterial disease. But that's a guess. The photo could be an egg laden female or a female stricken with a disease causing swelling. It could also be a viral problem.
The uncertainty means treatment is close to impossible. The photo just doesn't give enough info, and there's no guarantee there is a treatment.

Chances are (and this is sad), you will lose almost all of them. If there are survivors, you'll have to wait a bit to replace the losses to make sure the disease is 'burned out' or dormant. In the meantime, I'd increase your partial water changes to every 7-10 days, and stay with that.

Yeah i kind of already understood that they likely would die out before i got the chance to really do anything about it, but just wanted to see if theres some form of clarification so its easier to deal with in the future (in the case they all die out). Thank you so much for the response though, ill continue to look into it.

 

[Colin_T]

How long has the tank been set up for?
What are the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels?
What is the pH, GH and KH of the water?

How much water do you change every 3 weeks?
Do you gravel clean the substrate when you do a water change?

What sort of filter is on/ in the aquarium?
How often and how do you clean the filter?

What other fishes are in the tank?

How long have you had the cardinal tetras?
How long have they been dying off?
What sort of time frame is it between deaths?
Were the cardinals big when you got them or little ones?

What symptoms (besides getting fat) do the fish show before or after they die?
How quickly do they get fat before they die?
Do they eat after they get fat?
What does their poop look like (the healthy fish and the sick ones that get fat)?

Do the fish swim normally when they get sick (fat)?
Do they breathe more rapidly when they get fat?

 

[hihello]

How long has the tank been set up for?
What are the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels?
What is the pH, GH and KH of the water?

How much water do you change every 3 weeks?
Do you gravel clean the substrate when you do a water change?

What sort of filter is on/ in the aquarium?
How often and how do you clean the filter?

What other fishes are in the tank?

How long have you had the cardinal tetras?
How long have they been dying off?
What sort of time frame is it between deaths?
Were the cardinals big when you got them or little ones?

What symptoms (besides getting fat) do the fish show before or after they die?
How quickly do they get fat before they die?
Do they eat after they get fat?
What does their poop look like (the healthy fish and the sick ones that get fat)?

Do the fish swim normally when they get sick (fat)?
Do they breathe more rapidly when they get fat?

1. Tank has been set up for atleast 2 years now
2. nitrite is safe, nitrate around 10mg/L, ammonia im unsure as the test strips i use are pretty unspecific (im looking to switch to water tested)
3. pH is around 6.8, GH ≈25, KH is 40mg/L
4. I usually change around 30-40 litres, or more if the water and gravel need it.
5. Yes, i clean the gravel pretty throughly
6. Filter is EHEIM powerline XL and the entire thing gets cleaned every water change due to it already being pretty overwhelmed
7. Only the remaining cardinal and the pleco are in the tank due to the already harsh bioload from the pleco.
8. Ive had the cardinal for possibly a year, they started dying off maybe a few months in but i cant guarantee.
9. Id say the time between is usually a month
10. They were somewhat small, but not necessarily babies
11. Not really any until theyre at the verge of dying, they usually start to give up at that point.
12. Its hard to tell, but one will eventually start to stick out from the others with a slightly bigger underbelly. They eat like normally
13. Unsure about the poop
14. Swimming seems somewhat normal, though the current fat one seems to be "hyperventilating"

I managed to get a nicer photo but its still pretty unclear

 

[Colin_T]

Is this current fat/ sick one eating?

Can you post a 1 minute video of this sick fish?
Upload videos to YouTube, then copy & paste the link here.
If you use a mobile phone to film the fish, hold the phone in landscape mode.

 

[hihello]

Is this current fat/ sick one eating?

Can you post a 1 minute video of this sick fish?
Upload videos to YouTube, then copy & paste the link here.
If you use a mobile phone to film the fish, hold the phone in landscape mode.

Its eating like normally, im not home atm but ill send a video later

 

[hihello]

Is this current fat/ sick one eating?

Can you post a 1 minute video of this sick fish?
Upload videos to YouTube, then copy & paste the link here.
If you use a mobile phone to film the fish, hold the phone in landscape mode.

I apologize for the blur and stuff, i can take him out the tank if you want an even closer look

 

[Colin_T]

The fact it's still eating even though it has bloated up is interesting. Normally when fish have internal problems and bloat up, they stop eating or only eat a little bit.

It's breathing rapidly, which is a sign the fish is in pain/ discomfort and struggling but it shouldn't be eating normally.

The time frame when they die is typical of fish infected with Mycobacteria (Fish TB) whereby the fish die randomly over a period of months (one here and one there). The common symptoms is sudden bloating, breathing heavily, stop eating, do a stringy white poop and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms. It's possible that TB is the cause and the infection is in an organ that hasn't fully ruptured and the fish is struggling with it until it gradually weakens and dies.

With weird cases like this the best thing is to take a sick fish to a fish vet and get them to do a necropsy and take samples for testing. If you can't find a fish vet then the Department of Agriculture might have a Fish Health section with a fish vet who might do it for you. You could also try a university biology lab and see if they have a student or teacher that could do it.

The only thing I can suggest is to do bigger water changes and see if that helps, but it probably won't. You could try changing 75% of the water every couple of days for a few weeks and see what happens. Gravel clean the substrate each time you do the water change. Clean the filter too if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks, then see what happens.

 

[hihello]

The fact it's still eating even though it has bloated up is interesting. Normally when fish have internal problems and bloat up, they stop eating or only eat a little bit.

It's breathing rapidly, which is a sign the fish is in pain/ discomfort and struggling but it shouldn't be eating normally.

The time frame when they die is typical of fish infected with Mycobacteria (Fish TB) whereby the fish die randomly over a period of months (one here and one there). The common symptoms is sudden bloating, breathing heavily, stop eating, do a stringy white poop and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms. It's possible that TB is the cause and the infection is in an organ that hasn't fully ruptured and the fish is struggling with it until it gradually weakens and dies.

With weird cases like this the best thing is to take a sick fish to a fish vet and get them to do a necropsy and take samples for testing. If you can't find a fish vet then the Department of Agriculture might have a Fish Health section with a fish vet who might do it for you. You could also try a university biology lab and see if they have a student or teacher that could do it.

The only thing I can suggest is to do bigger water changes and see if that helps, but it probably won't. You could try changing 75% of the water every couple of days for a few weeks and see what happens. Gravel clean the substrate each time you do the water change. Clean the filter too if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks, then see what happens.

That is actually super interesting, thank you so much for the information! I currently live in sweden so im not sure if its the same information regarding donating it, but ill check it out. The fish that i posted about originally was missing when i went to feed them yesterday which usually means its already died somewhere– though considering the pattern the other two will likely soon follow with the same symptoms.

I do have one more question though, could this possibly spread to my common pleco? I know plecos are very hardy fish and hes been fine before when other disease has struck older aquariums but id rather not **** around and find out.

 

[Colin_T]

If it is Fish TB, then it will be in the tank and the pleco will get it, assuming it doesn't already have it. However, it's a slow growing disease and most bottom dwelling fishes tend to live with it for a lot longer than other fishes. We assume that is due to the bottom dwellers being exposed to it more often and have built up some immunity to it. This doesn't mean they don't die from it, just they live longer with it.

The other plus is the bigger the fish, the longer it takes for them to succumb to the ailment. The Mycobacteria grow slowly and take 6-12 months to kill a small fish like a cardinal tetra. Rainbowfish that grow to 4 inches can carry the disease for 1-3 years (temperature dependent) before they die from it. A big pleco (12 inches or more) could live with it for 5-10 years depending on how many Mycobacterium cells they were initially exposed to and what temperature the water is.

Mycobacteria grow slower in cool water than in warm water. In temperatures around 30C, Fish TB can grow fastest, whereas fish kept at temperatures around 10C can live with the disease for decades because the bacteria grow a lot slower. Reducing the water temperature to the low 20s Celsius can slow the growth of the bacteria and fish usually live longer.

If it is Mycobacteria, then it is in the tank and everything used in the tank will be contaminated. Under these circumstances you have two options.
1) Kill everything in the tank and disinfect it all, then start again. The problem with this is most fish sold in pet shops have the disease and if you get rid of the pleco, clean the tank and start again, you can get infected fish and end up right back here where you are now.

2) Accept the disease is in the tank and let the pleco live out its life. If you add other fish they might be free of the disease or might have it, but will get it if kept in an infected tank. Unfortunately there's no way to tell if the fish have TB unless you kill the fish and send its organs off for culturing in a lab.

Most people choose option 2 and just accept the disease is there. When the pleco dies they disinfect the tank and equipment and start again.

--------------------

There's more info on Fish TB at the following 2 links. The first link has info about how people can be affected by this disease but both threads are worth a read if you are interested or concerned. There are definite safety concerns if you have an aquarium with Mycobacteria, especially if you are old, really young, or have underlying health issues or a weakened immune system. If you have any questions or concerns, just ask.

Questions regarding fish TB

So I have been reading things in Manual of Fish Health and this forum and have a bunch of questions regarding fish TB: 1. Why TB are common in fish from south/asian farm? 2. Can fish get TB even if you don’t buy new fish? 3. I always have cuts on my hand (I don’t know how?) How many percent can...

www.fishforums.net

TB, and effected fish…

So I’m not really understanding this, as it wasn’t around, when I had tanks 20 years ago ( or at least hadn’t been diagnosed ) Rumored to have come from Asian farming techniques… some fish species seem to be more susceptible to it than others ( my 1st experience, was with yellow axelrodi...

www.fishforums.net

 

[hihello]

If it is Fish TB, then it will be in the tank and the pleco will get it, assuming it doesn't already have it. However, it's a slow growing disease and most bottom dwelling fishes tend to live with it for a lot longer than other fishes. We assume that is due to the bottom dwellers being exposed to it more often and have built up some immunity to it. This doesn't mean they don't die from it, just they live longer with it.

The other plus is the bigger the fish, the longer it takes for them to succumb to the ailment. The Mycobacteria grow slowly and take 6-12 months to kill a small fish like a cardinal tetra. Rainbowfish that grow to 4 inches can carry the disease for 1-3 years (temperature dependent) before they die from it. A big pleco (12 inches or more) could live with it for 5-10 years depending on how many Mycobacterium cells they were initially exposed to and what temperature the water is.

Mycobacteria grow slower in cool water than in warm water. In temperatures around 30C, Fish TB can grow fastest, whereas fish kept at temperatures around 10C can live with the disease for decades because the bacteria grow a lot slower. Reducing the water temperature to the low 20s Celsius can slow the growth of the bacteria and fish usually live longer.

If it is Mycobacteria, then it is in the tank and everything used in the tank will be contaminated. Under these circumstances you have two options.
1) Kill everything in the tank and disinfect it all, then start again. The problem with this is most fish sold in pet shops have the disease and if you get rid of the pleco, clean the tank and start again, you can get infected fish and end up right back here where you are now.

2) Accept the disease is in the tank and let the pleco live out its life. If you add other fish they might be free of the disease or might have it, but will get it if kept in an infected tank. Unfortunately there's no way to tell if the fish have TB unless you kill the fish and send its organs off for culturing in a lab.

Most people choose option 2 and just accept the disease is there. When the pleco dies they disinfect the tank and equipment and start again.

--------------------

There's more info on Fish TB at the following 2 links. The first link has info about how people can be affected by this disease but both threads are worth a read if you are interested or concerned. There are definite safety concerns if you have an aquarium with Mycobacteria, especially if you are old, really young, or have underlying health issues or a weakened immune system. If you have any questions or concerns, just ask.

Questions regarding fish TB

So I have been reading things in Manual of Fish Health and this forum and have a bunch of questions regarding fish TB: 1. Why TB are common in fish from south/asian farm? 2. Can fish get TB even if you don’t buy new fish? 3. I always have cuts on my hand (I don’t know how?) How many percent can...

www.fishforums.net

TB, and effected fish…

So I’m not really understanding this, as it wasn’t around, when I had tanks 20 years ago ( or at least hadn’t been diagnosed ) Rumored to have come from Asian farming techniques… some fish species seem to be more susceptible to it than others ( my 1st experience, was with yellow axelrodi...

www.fishforums.net

Okay, thank you so much for the help!! I most certainly wont kill him if it turns out its TB as he got me where i am today, so just super bare aquarium it is

 

[Colin_T]

You can have plants and driftwood to make the tank look nicer, but try to get the remaining tetras tested if they get fat and act the same way so you can confirm whatever it is. You could even just take the last 2 tetras to a vet and get them necropsied. Chances are they have the same problem and it will be noticeable once the fish is examined.

 

[hihello]

If it is Fish TB, then it will be in the tank and the pleco will get it, assuming it doesn't already have it. However, it's a slow growing disease and most bottom dwelling fishes tend to live with it for a lot longer than other fishes. We assume that is due to the bottom dwellers being exposed to it more often and have built up some immunity to it. This doesn't mean they don't die from it, just they live longer with it.

The other plus is the bigger the fish, the longer it takes for them to succumb to the ailment. The Mycobacteria grow slowly and take 6-12 months to kill a small fish like a cardinal tetra. Rainbowfish that grow to 4 inches can carry the disease for 1-3 years (temperature dependent) before they die from it. A big pleco (12 inches or more) could live with it for 5-10 years depending on how many Mycobacterium cells they were initially exposed to and what temperature the water is.

Mycobacteria grow slower in cool water than in warm water. In temperatures around 30C, Fish TB can grow fastest, whereas fish kept at temperatures around 10C can live with the disease for decades because the bacteria grow a lot slower. Reducing the water temperature to the low 20s Celsius can slow the growth of the bacteria and fish usually live longer.

If it is Mycobacteria, then it is in the tank and everything used in the tank will be contaminated. Under these circumstances you have two options.
1) Kill everything in the tank and disinfect it all, then start again. The problem with this is most fish sold in pet shops have the disease and if you get rid of the pleco, clean the tank and start again, you can get infected fish and end up right back here where you are now.

2) Accept the disease is in the tank and let the pleco live out its life. If you add other fish they might be free of the disease or might have it, but will get it if kept in an infected tank. Unfortunately there's no way to tell if the fish have TB unless you kill the fish and send its organs off for culturing in a lab.

Most people choose option 2 and just accept the disease is there. When the pleco dies they disinfect the tank and equipment and start again.

--------------------

There's more info on Fish TB at the following 2 links. The first link has info about how people can be affected by this disease but both threads are worth a read if you are interested or concerned. There are definite safety concerns if you have an aquarium with Mycobacteria, especially if you are old, really young, or have underlying health issues or a weakened immune system. If you have any questions or concerns, just ask.

Questions regarding fish TB

So I have been reading things in Manual of Fish Health and this forum and have a bunch of questions regarding fish TB: 1. Why TB are common in fish from south/asian farm? 2. Can fish get TB even if you don’t buy new fish? 3. I always have cuts on my hand (I don’t know how?) How many percent can...

www.fishforums.net

TB, and effected fish…

So I’m not really understanding this, as it wasn’t around, when I had tanks 20 years ago ( or at least hadn’t been diagnosed ) Rumored to have come from Asian farming techniques… some fish species seem to be more susceptible to it than others ( my 1st experience, was with yellow axelrodi...

www.fishforums.net

Sorry for bothering you with so many questions, but i searched around abit and according to google fish TB can be tested through water samples. Is this true and can a water sample be sent in to find out if a tank is infected instead of one of the fish?

 

[hihello]

You can have plants and driftwood to make the tank look nicer, but try to get the remaining tetras tested if they get fat and act the same way so you can confirm whatever it is. You could even just take the last 2 tetras to a vet and get them necropsied. Chances are they have the same problem and it will be noticeable once the fish is examined.

I will definitely try my best to get them tested, however its weirdly difficult to find a clinic that would do so, thats why i asked about the water samples in worst case scenario

I youd be interested/curious, i can update you with the test results once i get it done